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Mike Fisher
Samba Member
Joined: January 30, 2006
Posts: 17970
Location: Eugene, OR
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 Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:22 am Post subject: Re: "Blue" '72 Square build from a newbie. |
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Inspect your gas tank for crud through the gas gauge sender hole with a flashlight. See if the filter sock in there looks clean. Some have even unbolted the metal supply line and eliminated the gas sock in the gas tank. Drain your gas through a funnel with cotton cloth in it to filter out any crud in it so you can reuse it. This will at least eliminate the gas tank as the source of a gas supply problem.
P.S. Did you order/buy new correct bleeder screws like Ray's picture show?
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69 FI/AT square Daily Driver
66 sunroof,67,70,71,71,71AT,72,72AT,73 Parts
two 57 oval ragtops sold
'68 Karmann Ghia sold
Society is like stew. If you don't keep it stirred up you end up with a lot of scum on the top! - Russ_Wolfe/Edward Abbey |
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KollynnBlackpaw
Samba Member
Joined: October 19, 2016
Posts: 528
Location: Hubbard, Oregon
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| Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:30 pm Post subject: Re: "Blue" '72 Square build from a newbie. |
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| Mike Fisher wrote: |
Inspect your gas tank for crud through the gas gauge sender hole with a flashlight. See if the filter sock in there looks clean. Some have even unbolted the metal supply line and eliminated the gas sock in the gas tank. Drain your gas through a funnel with cotton cloth in it to filter out any crud in it so you can reuse it. This will at least eliminate the gas tank as the source of a gas supply problem.
P.S. Did you order/buy new correct bleeder screws like Ray's picture show? |
I'm ordering them tomorrow, actually, as I've been paid. But I'll get on checking the tank ASAP tomorrow as well, as I had read about the sock and how it can get bad or even just fall apart completely.
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'71 Shantung Yellow AT/FI Squareback |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21513
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:55 am Post subject: Re: "Blue" '72 Square build from a newbie. |
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| KollynnBlackpaw wrote: |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
Um....no. it sounds like any number of things. Fuel starvation is specific....pump cavitation from crap in the tank, clogged filter etc.
The same effects caj be from vacuum leaks .....0....repeat...0.....vacuum leaks of any kind allowed. It can be ignition timing, advance, bad injection harness wires, bad or out of adjustment TVS, messed up injection trigger points, defective advan e unit.....a whole slew of items down to and including frayed ground braid on the breaker plate.....producing the exact symptom.
More data.
Ray |
Sorry, to be more super specific then, after diagnosing and looking into stuff, it's to ME more than likely a fuel issue of some sort. I've already tested for leaks, and if it's something else you've listed then I've no clue. Sorry I'm no genius like you. |
 Trust me...I'm no genius!
OK....you are on the right track...at least for the fuel supply system.
But it helps to understand this.....in several acvw books...they describe the EFI system as tHREE separate but interlocked systems really.
Fuel
Air
Control
Here is a quickly diagram flow of each system.
1. The fuel supply system....from the tank to the engine and back:
Tank>>>sock filter and pickup tube>>>fuel filter (can be clogged or be the wrong filter)>>>pump feed issues can be check valve, wear or voltage)>>>damper>>> hard line in tunnel>>> injectors 3 and 4 (must not leak from the tips, must have good spray pattern)>>>cold start valve (can leak or not work)>>>injectors 1 and 2 (must not leak from the tips and must have good spray pattern)>>>pressure regulator (can leak down, not produce any pressure from broken diaphragm, not be able to be adjusted, pressure MUST be adjusted to correct psi)>>>return line to tank>>>fuel hoses.
2. Air/vacuum supply system:
Air cleaner>>>warm air supply and vacuum actuator (if yours has one )>>>connection boot to TB>>>Throttle body (can leak around plate, can not open or close all the way, can leak at the throttle plate shaft)>>>central air plenum (can leak at hose connection or the plate gasket on the back)>>>runner connecting boots (can leak)>>>intake runners (can leak at the base gasket at the head and the injector seals)>>>exhaust manifolds (leaks affect flow and vacuum in the intake)>>>muffler (affects how engine runs and therefore affects intake flow and vacuum)>>>PCV hoses to heads (must have no leaks)>>>deceleration valve (if you have one it must be properly adjusted and have no leaks in the vacuum hose)>>>oil and PCV riser (must have no vacuum leaks and all hoses must be leak free)>>>modulator valve hose to automatic trans (must be leak free)>>>Auxiliary air regulator (must open all the way when cold and close all the way when hot, must have no vacuum leaks at its hoses).
3. Control system: You can start from either end
Electrical supply (must be stable voltage at 12 volts minimum)>>>power supply relay (must have clean contacts, proper power supply and good ground)>>>ECU (rare but it can have defects)>>>harness (most problematic part with age. Individual connectors inside of the component plugs can make poor or intermittent connection)>>>TS-1 sensor (must match book resistance spec and have clean connection)>>>TS-2 sensor (must match book resistance spec and have clean connection)>>>injectors (mus have clean connections and match book resistance spec)>>>TVS (must be the correct one and be adjusted properly and have good clean connections inside the plug)>>>EFI trigger points (must have correct resistance, balanced resistance within 0.2 ohms, must not be bent, worn or dirty and have a perfect connection inside the plug)>>>system ground connections at the engine case (must be perfect and tight)>>>MPS (must be the correct one, properly adjusted, have "0" vacuum leaks, have correct resistance on both circuits and have perfect connections inside of the plug)>>>Thermo time switch (must have proper resistance, must be the correct one, must have clean connection).
The ignition system speaks for itself....but is also connected at the hip.
You do not need anything more than basic hand tools (screwdrivers, sockets etc.), a water pressure gauge (not the best but serviceable)...and a volt meter...to test all of this. You can also do it in about 2-3 hours.
A suggestion....do not yet worry so much about interactions between these three sub-systems.
Start with any of these three systems and just check the COMPONENTS and CONNECTIONS ...whether its a hose connection or an electrical connection.
Clamp EVERY HOSE...whether its vacuum, air or fuel.
About 90% of the time...checking components and setting them straight....fixes problems you do not even know you have yet.
Do not jump around playing whack-a-mole from system to system.
For example....you are working on fuel supply in this thread right now. OK...check everything from the tank looking for silt...new filter...check pump function...with a gauge....then check injector seals. Not by looking at them...but by replacing them. They are cheap. While you have them out you can check spray pattern and leakage in 5 minutes. Then with the gauge on you can check pressure, adjust pressure and check for leak down.
Done with fuel supply. Now...with regard to fuel supply...you know what its NOT.
Ray |
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KollynnBlackpaw
Samba Member
Joined: October 19, 2016
Posts: 528
Location: Hubbard, Oregon
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| Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 1:22 am Post subject: Re: "Blue" '72 Square build from a newbie. |
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Thanks a ton as always, Ray. So far the tank/fuel look good - no crud in there. The sock is very clean. Hoses to the filter are good and I'm yet to check the filter. It looks like it'll be ok - but how do I actually check it? It's one of the semi-milk white square types, I assume that's it / the only one, yes? If not - where do I check? The manuals point to it, but don't make good sense of WHERE it is, basically just points me up front. After that I'll be moving back and checking the rest if that's not it.
Also - about every hose I can think of is already clamped, but I'll make sure to go back over them, Ray. The only memorable one that wasn't, was to the large pan/drum (crankcase ventilator if I remember what it said.)
How would I go about checking a light spark - by the way? Pretty much first thing I did when I started working on him was oil and plugs, plus took the good wires off my bug engine, so I doubt that's it but figure I should check that as well.
I was also told to check the condenser, as it's known for the same issues I'm having when it begins failing.
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'71 Shantung Yellow AT/FI Squareback
Last edited by KollynnBlackpaw on Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:36 am; edited 1 time in total |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21513
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 7:56 am Post subject: Re: "Blue" '72 Square build from a newbie. |
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| Quote: |
| Thanks a ton as always, Ray. So far the tank/fuel look good - no crud in there. The sock is very clean. Hoses to the filter are good and I'm yet to check the filter. It looks like it'll be ok - but how do I actually check it? It's one of the semi-milk white square types, I assume that's it / the only one, yes? If not - where do I check? The manuals point to it, but don't make good sense of WHERE it is, basically just points me up front. After that I'll be moving back and checking the rest if that's not it. |
See...this is one of those things...  ....you cant test it...and...if YOU...YOU...have not replaced it...its considered to be dirty and suspect. You replace it at intervals..BEFORE it needs to be replaced. Do not wait until your pump burns up or the car stalls to replace it. I think factory interval was 12,000 miles.
In places with known dirty fuel.....for instance Atlanta had filthy fuel before the 2000 Federal mandate that all stations go to plastic storage tanks..I carried a spare in the glove box and replaced it at about 6000 miles.
A basic Fram G-3741 square filter is $4.87 at Rockauto. In a pinch you can get the round body version of the filter you have at NAPA for $2.87 each part # SFI 23001.
Ray |
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blues90
Samba Member
Joined: March 14, 2009
Posts: 1912
Location: Hollywood ,CA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:38 am Post subject: Re: "Blue" '72 Square build from a newbie. |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
| KollynnBlackpaw wrote: |
| Well, today I learned a lesson. And that lesson is my body REALLY doesn't like PB Blaster. Yesterday I had l itching that I thought would go away fairly quick, as my skin is fairly resistant to a lot of things, but it just got worse and worse. No allergic reaction! Just should have heeded the "may irritate skin" a little better. Feels like fleas have bit me up and down. Some how my legs even itch! Nitrile gloves and long sleeves from now on when I use that junk. |
I have to ask.... why you would use ANY solvent or chemical without gloves and/or respirator? probably because you didn't know it may be required....right?
I have been into literally thousands of factories, plants and work shops of all types. I cannot impress enough on many people I meet...to use gloves and proper protection.
I had the same mental block when I was younger. As long as hand cleaner was around I figured its no big deal for most things...greases...oils...gasoline...adhesives...paint thinner....as long as I could get it off later...its just dirt right? By the way....CV joint grease contains both lead and molybdenum...and they penetrate through the skin. Just an example.
You will find....when you get old enough that the effect of chemical usage over the years is cumulative. You WILL develop sensitivities/allergies to a wider range of chemicals than people who do not work on industrial or mechanical things and come into contact with a wide range of chemicals.
Now that I work with safety and chemical training as part of what I do for a living and have learned what even seemingly common chemicals can actually do inside your system....I am very careful now.
You should ALWAYS pull up the MSDS/SDS sheet for ANY CHEMICAL you use. Its free....it takes seconds....its online by law. 10 years ago you could not easily do this. Now you can.
The MSDS or SDS sheets will tell you what kind of protective gear you need and whether its toxic, just hazardous or is carcinogenic, explosive etc.
And...don't think I'm being an asshole...but with these resources available for anyone for free instantly....if you get hurt ....once..... because you do not know this information is available.....well...thats your education . After being told this....if you do not take precautions and you get hurt again....I have no sympathy.
By the way....PB Blaster is actually pretty toxic.
Here is the MSDS/SDS sheet.
https://www.techtirerepairs.com/content/product-documents/PB-B-USA-English.pdf
Two chemicals in PB blaster are pretty nasty:
1. Naptha (Greater than 50%): This is the chemical that most probably caused skin irritation for you. here is its SDS
https://www.collectioncare.org/MSDS/naphthamsds.pdf If you scrolldown to page 2...you can see what Naptha is made of. Its nasty.
The main chemicals in it that should alarm you are ethylbenzene, benzene and 1,2, 4 trimethylbenzene. All three of these based around benzene cause nervous system damage and have chronic effects like liver and kidney damage and bone marrow damage.
2. Alkyloxypolyethyleneoxyethanol (above 2%): Here is the SDS sheet for this chemical
http://www.essentialingredients.com/msds/Genapol%20LA%20070%20S.pdf
While this chemical does not cause burns, skin damage....its acutely toxic when breathed in , if you get it in your mouth and it causes eye damage. Nitryl gloves...normally my go to....are not good for this chemical. Use Butyl Rubber, PVC Or Neoprene.
The issue with this chemical is that it contains trace amounts of ethylene Oxide...which evaporate out fast and can accumulate in areas you are working. Ethylene oxide is carcinogenic and causes birth defects. This is the kind of by-product chemical that with years of repeated poor usage will get you when you are older.
Sorry for the rant. Ray |
Tell me about it. before all the gloves were available and all the issues of asbestos were disclosed ford shops I worked in the used to just take a blow gun and blow that crap in the shops air and even grind the brake shoes to fit the drums. even stuck our hands in mineral spirits.
When I painted my car is used a good respirator and gloves for the Lacquer thinner .
Now I freak out using any chemical for anything when working on my T-3 . I prefer just using a bottle of penetrating oil to get things loose.
I still need to bleed my brakes last time I changed the fluid was by bleeding in maybe 1999or 97 can't remember . The lines look of at the master and tunnel from the outside have not idea what the inside look like and at my age I really hope I don't need to change them . They still stop the car yet are a huge concern . The huge issue for me it this is my only car so whatever I do I have at best a few days . I'm going to try gravity bleeding we don't have the rust issue as far as bleeders go here yet last time I did put penetrating oil on the bleeders just in case and see the bleeders are clear inside using a small drill bit by hand .
Last edited by blues90 on Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:48 am; edited 1 time in total |
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KollynnBlackpaw
Samba Member
Joined: October 19, 2016
Posts: 528
Location: Hubbard, Oregon
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| Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:40 am Post subject: Re: "Blue" '72 Square build from a newbie. |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
[b]
See...this is one of those things... ....you cant test it...and...if YOU...YOU...have not replaced it...its considered to be dirty and suspect. You replace it at intervals..BEFORE it needs to be replaced. Do not wait until your pump burns up or the car stalls to replace it. I think factory interval was 12,000 miles.
In places with known dirty fuel.....for instance Atlanta had filthy fuel before the 2000 Federal mandate that all stations go to plastic storage tanks..I carried a spare in the glove box and replaced it at about 6000 miles.
A basic Fram G-3741 square filter is $4.87 at Rockauto. In a pinch you can get the round body version of the filter you have at NAPA for $2.87 each part # SFI 23001.
Ray |
Yes, I know I should replace it - just like I should also have my brakes done, because who knows how long it's been since they've been gone through, but I'm still learning! All this goes into memory, and of course is saved here. When I need it again, I know. Just like I changed the oil, sump gasket, and plugs when I got both this and the bus.
But thank you as always Ray - I'll run out and grab a filter today. Any suggestions before I take it off to replace?
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'71 Shantung Yellow AT/FI Squareback |
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KollynnBlackpaw
Samba Member
Joined: October 19, 2016
Posts: 528
Location: Hubbard, Oregon
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| Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:42 am Post subject: Re: "Blue" '72 Square build from a newbie. |
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| blues90 wrote: |
Tell me about it. before all the gloves were available and all the issues of asbestos were disclosed ford shops I worked in the used to just take a blow gun and blow that crap in the shops air and even grind the brake shoes to fit the drums. even stuck our hands in mineral spirits.
When I painted my car is used a good respirator and gloves for the Lacquer thinner .
Now I freak out using any chemical for anything when working on my T-3 . |
Don't I know it - the restoration shop I apprentice at, I'm always wearing gloves and have my eyes and respirator right there and ready, as well as ears if I happen to be workin on something that needs em.
I'm sure some of the guys might think I overdo it or that I just don't want to get dirty with the gloves, but it's both safety and if I'm handling something nasty, I can just take the gloves off and handle something delicate in a couple seconds without damaging it or getting IT dirty.
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KollynnBlackpaw
Samba Member
Joined: October 19, 2016
Posts: 528
Location: Hubbard, Oregon
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| Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 8:17 pm Post subject: Re: "Blue" '72 Square build from a newbie. |
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How've you guys been lately? I've been pretty good! I got my new EMPI exhaust in and hooked up and I gotta say it looks great!
Out with the old...
In with the new! It sits a liiiittle odd, but I'm happy with anything not messed up as bad as my old one.
And on the flip side of that...
I think I've discovered my issue. There seems to be a fuel leak, but I'm not sure where. It seems to come straight out of the engine, as looking in the engine bay I could find nothing with fuel on it, and the injectors were not leaking.
It's no wonder I never found the leak, I'd never really run him and looked under him. In the bay, sure, but not under. And I never saw a puddle because there's already an oil stain there! 
Well it's all found out - can anyone give me advice?
It's coming from the front right of the engine, out of (whatever those rods are, read the title, you know I'm new!  ) or above, in the grooved thing (see previous parenthesis.)
I also saw the eclipse! I was lucky to be smack in the totality path. What an experience! A little bit after totality I used the unique lighting to catch a few crummy quality photos. I really need to get a decent camera.
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21513
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 9:03 pm Post subject: Re: "Blue" '72 Square build from a newbie. |
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Same comment as fuel filter.
First thing you do is replace ALL...ALL....ALL fuel lines.
Unless you have replaced them....yourself... and know how old they are.....just like the fuel filter. They are trash. Do not pass go...do not collect $200....just replace them.
Ray |
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KollynnBlackpaw
Samba Member
Joined: October 19, 2016
Posts: 528
Location: Hubbard, Oregon
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| Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 9:29 pm Post subject: Re: "Blue" '72 Square build from a newbie. |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
Same comment as fuel filter.
First thing you do is replace ALL...ALL....ALL fuel lines.
Unless you have replaced them....yourself... and know how old they are.....just like the fuel filter. They are trash. Do not pass go...do not collect $200....just replace them.
Ray |
That's the plan - just I'd like to know wherabouts this leak could be. It's not obvious that it's coming from a line - because nothing above the engine is wet with fuel. Any specific line that could have made this, or other issue that may have happened?
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KollynnBlackpaw
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Joined: October 19, 2016
Posts: 528
Location: Hubbard, Oregon
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| Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 2:02 am Post subject: Re: "Blue" '72 Square build from a newbie. |
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So it seems to be coming from the cylinder head, and from the one thing I can find, according to the positioning it sounds like a pulled stud? But of course I want to hear everyone's advice before I go off willy nilly taking the engine out (god I don't want to do that - I need to be driving soon.)
And before anyone suggests it - no, I don't plan on swapping to the carb engine. It's probably worse than it looks and I've heard it's just easier to mess with, with worse MPG and performance (if you're not building performance-oriented of course). But that's just what I've HEARD.
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Mike Fisher
Samba Member
Joined: January 30, 2006
Posts: 17970
Location: Eugene, OR
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| Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 9:40 am Post subject: Re: "Blue" '72 Square build from a newbie. |
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I'd guess it is a mixture of gas/oil from you heads/crankcase. Did you change the oil since you bought it? Did it smell like gas? You might have 60/100 lbs fuel pressure now, if the steel return line on the passenger side is plugged up partially/solid & forcing gas into the oil? Did you buy a gauge/get the fuel pressure tested & new brake bleeders installed?
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https://imgur.com/user/FisherSquareback/posts
69 FI/AT square Daily Driver
66 sunroof,67,70,71,71,71AT,72,72AT,73 Parts
two 57 oval ragtops sold
'68 Karmann Ghia sold
Society is like stew. If you don't keep it stirred up you end up with a lot of scum on the top! - Russ_Wolfe/Edward Abbey |
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KollynnBlackpaw
Samba Member
Joined: October 19, 2016
Posts: 528
Location: Hubbard, Oregon
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| Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 12:21 pm Post subject: Re: "Blue" '72 Square build from a newbie. |
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| Mike Fisher wrote: |
| I'd guess it is a mixture of gas/oil from you heads/crankcase. Did you change the oil since you bought it? Did it smell like gas? You might have 60/100 lbs fuel pressure now, if the steel return line on the passenger side is plugged up partially/solid & forcing gas into the oil? Did you buy a gauge/get the fuel pressure tested & new brake bleeders installed? |
I actually decided to steal Blueberry's brakes when I can - they were upgraded right before he was sold off. I have changed the oil, and it did smell like gas at first, I think I've mentioned before.
I'm running to the hardware store today to pick up some other stuff and will be getting that doggone gauge. Haven't had time since Mom has been on another schedule entirely. I'll check back later. I'm really really hoping it's nothing big.
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Mike Fisher
Samba Member
Joined: January 30, 2006
Posts: 17970
Location: Eugene, OR
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| Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 10:17 am Post subject: Re: "Blue" '72 Square build from a newbie. |
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You & Mom are not gonna have it running/driving/stopping before Winter if you do not tow it to your bosses Shop, where there are a couple good mechanics to help you! 
_________________
https://imgur.com/user/FisherSquareback/posts
69 FI/AT square Daily Driver
66 sunroof,67,70,71,71,71AT,72,72AT,73 Parts
two 57 oval ragtops sold
'68 Karmann Ghia sold
Society is like stew. If you don't keep it stirred up you end up with a lot of scum on the top! - Russ_Wolfe/Edward Abbey |
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KollynnBlackpaw
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Joined: October 19, 2016
Posts: 528
Location: Hubbard, Oregon
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| Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 11:48 pm Post subject: Re: "Blue" '72 Square build from a newbie. |
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| Mike Fisher wrote: |
| You & Mom are not gonna have it running/driving/stopping before Winter if you do not tow it to your bosses Shop, where there are a couple good mechanics to help you! |
Oh, we know it. We just gotta make scheduled time with the shop, really  I'll be talking to the lead mechanic (whom will be working with me) tomorrow (Tuesday.)
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Mike Fisher
Samba Member
Joined: January 30, 2006
Posts: 17970
Location: Eugene, OR
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| Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 7:47 pm Post subject: Re: "Blue" '72 Square build from a newbie. |
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Good, sometimes you have to hire some help to keep the project from bogging down/taking too long.
_________________
https://imgur.com/user/FisherSquareback/posts
69 FI/AT square Daily Driver
66 sunroof,67,70,71,71,71AT,72,72AT,73 Parts
two 57 oval ragtops sold
'68 Karmann Ghia sold
Society is like stew. If you don't keep it stirred up you end up with a lot of scum on the top! - Russ_Wolfe/Edward Abbey |
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KollynnBlackpaw
Samba Member
Joined: October 19, 2016
Posts: 528
Location: Hubbard, Oregon
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| Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 8:36 pm Post subject: Re: "Blue" '72 Square build from a newbie. |
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| Mike Fisher wrote: |
| Good, sometimes you have to hire some help to keep the project from bogging down/taking too long. |
Yep! On the same note, I've messed up Blue after inspecting distributor points. Won't start now, but I've not messed with anything? Only had the cap off, with wires still attached, and that only goes in one way.
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KollynnBlackpaw
Samba Member
Joined: October 19, 2016
Posts: 528
Location: Hubbard, Oregon
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| Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 9:07 pm Post subject: Re: "Blue" '72 Square build from a newbie. |
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Hokilie doakilie, so I've been trying to get him to go once in a while (waiting in between to help) but the best I can get are some sputters. I think I'll pick up some extra spark plugs and see if changing them out will help. Good to have some spares even if they don't help.
Here's some better photos of Blue's engine bay in case y'all see something wrong. Yes, I made absolute sure the firing order is correct.
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ibjack
Samba Member
Joined: February 06, 2002
Posts: 2105
Location: Imperial Beach CA
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| Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:28 am Post subject: Re: "Blue" '72 Square build from a newbie. |
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Your firing order is correct but it seems that the orientation of #1 on the distributer is not correct.
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'68 Lotus White T34 automatic sunroof
'64 Manila Yellow T34
'65 Sea Blue Square Panel
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