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79SuperVert Samba Member
Joined: May 31, 2002 Posts: 9758 Location: Elizabeth, NJ & La Isla Del Encanto
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Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 5:41 pm Post subject: Brake Cylinder Shelf Life |
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I have a stock of spare parts in case something fails, so that I can replace the part quickly and not wait for a new one. But sometimes, I'm lucky, and the parts take a long time to fail.
In this case, it is the master cylinder. It has finally started to leak, and I have a spare German MC that I bought new around 12 years ago. It has been in its box, stored in another box of parts, in an unheated garage, all this time.
VW advised not to store assembled brake cylinder parts for more than one to two years. Do I need to rebuild this MC before putting it on the car? _________________ Central Jersey VW Society
Wanted: Art Collins VW (Savannah, Georgia) items - license plate surrounds and other items. Also ivory "AM", "FM" and "SW" buttons for a US Blaupunkt Frankfurt. |
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Zundfolge1432 Samba Member
Joined: June 13, 2004 Posts: 12454
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Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 6:45 pm Post subject: Re: Brake Cylinder Shelf Life |
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It's probably dry, I'd take it apart look at the rubber parts soak them in brake fluid and reassemble wet. Then it's good to go. |
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bluebus86 Banned
Joined: September 02, 2010 Posts: 11075
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Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 6:58 pm Post subject: Re: Brake Cylinder Shelf Life |
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maybe, maybe not. Cant hurt to open it up and inspect, maybe wipe clean and add new brake brease to tbe bore, piston and seals, Id be inclined to leave seals on piston if all else looks good, rather than stretch the seals in removal.
Id at least look for rust on the cylinder exterior, washer and spring clip, if corroded, id be wanting to pull it apart for inspection. If exterior is rust free, thats a good sign, and Id be thinking it is highly probably ok to run it as is. The Big problem would be corrosion, the prestorage condition, packaging and enviroment are the big variables. If any of the variables is conducive to corrosion, that corrosion would likely be seen on the exterior in addition to the interior, thats why corrosion free exterior is a good sign.
good luck _________________ Help Prevent VW Engine Fires, see this link.....Engine safety wire information
Stop introducing dirt into your oil when adjusting valves ... https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=683022 |
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Zundfolge1432 Samba Member
Joined: June 13, 2004 Posts: 12454
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Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 7:02 pm Post subject: Re: Brake Cylinder Shelf Life |
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bluebus86 wrote: |
maybe, maybe not. Cant hurt to open it up and inspect, maybe wipe clean and add new brake brease to tbe bore, piston and seals, Id be inclined to leave seals on piston if all else looks good, rather than stretch the seals in removal.
Id at least look for rust on the cylinder exterior, washer and spring clip, if corroded, id be wanting to pull it apart for inspection. If exterior is rust free, thats a good sign, and Id be thinking it is highly probably ok to run it as is. The Big problem would be corrosion, the prestorage condition, packaging and enviroment are the big variables. If any of the variables is conducive to corrosion, that corrosion would likely be seen on the exterior in addition to the interior, thats why corrosion free exterior is a good sign.
good luck |
I agree you know VW wanted you to assemble with assembly paste and if it sits for awhile it may just be stuck. Brake fluid or an attempt to bench bleed might help. Did I say that? |
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79SuperVert Samba Member
Joined: May 31, 2002 Posts: 9758 Location: Elizabeth, NJ & La Isla Del Encanto
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Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 8:15 pm Post subject: Re: Brake Cylinder Shelf Life |
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Thanks for the replies. Disassembling the MC seems simple, so I may go ahead and disassemble and lubricate the spare MC anyway. Is "brake assembly paste" what is now called "brake lube"? The VW service manual specifies paste, but only for re-inserting the MC's piston. The Haynes manual implies you can use either the paste or brake fluid. But "paste" and "fluid" don't sound like.the same thing. _________________ Central Jersey VW Society
Wanted: Art Collins VW (Savannah, Georgia) items - license plate surrounds and other items. Also ivory "AM", "FM" and "SW" buttons for a US Blaupunkt Frankfurt. |
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herbie1200 Samba Member
Joined: April 27, 2006 Posts: 832 Location: Rome - Italy
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Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 2:32 am Post subject: Re: Brake Cylinder Shelf Life |
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I kept a good ATE 19mm single circuit for over 10 years into my box, into its original package; a sort of oiled paper was around the MC.
Last year tried to mount it, perfect! No free play, solid pedal.
I'm going to consider that mounting grease is only to facilitate "remounting" of the pump, if dismantled.
But that grease is unuseful when MC (kept mounted) is installed and normal brake oil is filled.
So, basing on my personal experience, I will try to install new MC without dismantling; you have a good chance that it works at 100%. |
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bluebus86 Banned
Joined: September 02, 2010 Posts: 11075
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Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:20 am Post subject: Re: Brake Cylinder Shelf Life |
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the paste or grease is different than fluid. the paste has good lubrication ability and is not water absorptive. this is important to add to the master and wheel cylinders. it is very helpful in preventing stuck pistons and stopping rust in the bores, yes the paste is also put in non wetted areas of the cylinder. if you picture the wheel cylinders for instance, you see the rubber seal is inside of the pistons, the pistons are exposed to whatever enviroment makes it past the big end boots, if you drive thru water that area can be flooded, so you want the paste in there lubing the piston, keeping water out of the space between piston and bore. same thing on the master, near the peddle pushrod.
use of fluid to lube these non wetted areas results in the fluid aborbing water from air, making a corrosive mix of fluid/water on the bore.
so use paste or grease (old vw books called it genuine VW brake grease, but any brake system grease should be fine.
But only brake rated grease must be used, regular greases may harm the rubber. do not confise this grease with caliper slider pin grease. you want the grease that is brake rubber safe, made to go inside the brake hydroulics.
good luck _________________ Help Prevent VW Engine Fires, see this link.....Engine safety wire information
Stop introducing dirt into your oil when adjusting valves ... https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=683022
Last edited by bluebus86 on Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:53 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Eric&Barb Samba Member
Joined: September 19, 2004 Posts: 24671 Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:42 am Post subject: Re: Brake Cylinder Shelf Life |
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NAPA sells a Sil-Glyde silicon grease in a tube that is brake system approved by the manufacture.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=sil-glyde+silicone+lubri...a=products
Even new right off the FLAPS shelf would take apart any brake cylinder for inspection and brake paste. _________________ In Stereo, Where Available! |
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VOLKSWAGNUT Fastest VW Belt Changer
Joined: October 14, 2007 Posts: 11053 Location: Flippin' a Belt........ .... Off-n-On ... NC USA
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Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 9:04 am Post subject: Re: Brake Cylinder Shelf Life |
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^ Thats for contact points.. not for the wet Hydraulic system..
I disassemble every Master and Wheel Cylinder clean, ( light hone when/often required) and lubricate with the fluid I plan to use regardless of shelf life.. right before use..
Yes paste is different than brake fluid.
Brake cylinder assembly paste is different than the fluid.. but both are hygroscopic .. So neither is best for LONG damp shelf life..
You can NOT use a petroleum base to protect hydraulic cylinder brake parts..
Silicon grease will protect cylinder parts yes.. but .. you need to plan to use true silicon brake fluid when it goes into use. ..
Disassemble, inspect, clean and lube with the fluid you plan to use right before use.. ( if its usable) .. Then install and put it to work.. .. if not.. then it's a core..
No real reason to do it too long or way before.. unless you re-lube it every few years..
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. _________________ aka Ken {o\!/o}
Its your vehicle- stop askin' for approval-do what YOU like for cryin' out loud
Better to roll em' how you want and wear em' out-than lettin' em' rot out
Its about the going not the showing
Rebuilt to drive not decorate
WANTED: Local Eatin' Joints, Triple D for TheSamba contributions here http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=570510
Search "VOLKSWAGNUT" on YouTube since you cant watch a "certain" BELT change video round here
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Last edited by VOLKSWAGNUT on Fri Mar 17, 2017 9:07 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Cusser Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006 Posts: 31271 Location: Hot Arizona
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Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 9:07 am Post subject: Re: Brake Cylinder Shelf Life |
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I'd install it in mine. I'd do a bench bleed first, and if that looked OK, I'd go for it. Of course, that's not really a pressurized situation.
I find taking apart and re-inserting MC pistons a pain in the butt. The forward piston is typically held in place with a small hex head set screw. _________________ 1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297 |
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79SuperVert Samba Member
Joined: May 31, 2002 Posts: 9758 Location: Elizabeth, NJ & La Isla Del Encanto
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payin_vw Samba Member
Joined: November 27, 2012 Posts: 117 Location: Colorado USA
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Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:47 pm Post subject: Re: Brake Cylinder Shelf Life |
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I would say either one will work for assembling brake shoes and hardware but not to go inside the master or cylinders. _________________ 61 work in progress restoration, more work than progress actually. |
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Eric&Barb Samba Member
Joined: September 19, 2004 Posts: 24671 Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:56 pm Post subject: Re: Brake Cylinder Shelf Life |
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VOLKSWAGNUT wrote: |
^ Thats for contact points.. not for the wet Hydraulic system.. |
Like said before, manufacture approved this for inside and outside wet brake systems. Emailed twice just to make sure. Have been using it for years on ours with no problem. We do use silicon brake fluid, but that was not specified by the manufacture. _________________ In Stereo, Where Available! |
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VOLKSWAGNUT Fastest VW Belt Changer
Joined: October 14, 2007 Posts: 11053 Location: Flippin' a Belt........ .... Off-n-On ... NC USA
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Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:51 pm Post subject: Re: Brake Cylinder Shelf Life |
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Eric&Barb wrote: |
VOLKSWAGNUT wrote: |
^ Thats for contact points.. not for the wet Hydraulic system.. |
Like said before, manufacture approved this for inside and outside wet brake systems. Emailed twice just to make sure. Have been using it for years on ours with no problem. We do use silicon brake fluid, but that was not specified by the manufacture. |
K ..whatever makes you happy......but.. just to note.. you really didn't say or state anything before.
Also.. Sli-Glide Brake Lubricant pretty much states right on the label what its really for..
Silicone base grease, fluid ... anything. .. and standard Glycol based brake fluid don't mix.. period..
If it's used with Silicon Brake fluid.. then.. it's good.. but not so much for those who still use Glycol fluid..
I wont...dont recommend non compatible products.
To each their own..
IMO....
Yes.. and NO.. All depends on the end fluid to be used..
Glycol based paste..
http://www.ate-info.de/en/details/produkte/ate-bremszylinder-paste-180-ml
If you plan to use Silicon fluid then the Sli-Glide or other Silicon based paste/grease is ok.
.
. _________________ aka Ken {o\!/o}
Its your vehicle- stop askin' for approval-do what YOU like for cryin' out loud
Better to roll em' how you want and wear em' out-than lettin' em' rot out
Its about the going not the showing
Rebuilt to drive not decorate
WANTED: Local Eatin' Joints, Triple D for TheSamba contributions here http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=570510
Search "VOLKSWAGNUT" on YouTube since you cant watch a "certain" BELT change video round here
Usually and often edited |
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79SuperVert Samba Member
Joined: May 31, 2002 Posts: 9758 Location: Elizabeth, NJ & La Isla Del Encanto
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Posted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 7:48 am Post subject: Re: Brake Cylinder Shelf Life |
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Any tips on where to find? Bremszylinder paste doesn't seem to be available in the US. I can get it from overseas but the shipping costs are astronomical. _________________ Central Jersey VW Society
Wanted: Art Collins VW (Savannah, Georgia) items - license plate surrounds and other items. Also ivory "AM", "FM" and "SW" buttons for a US Blaupunkt Frankfurt. |
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VOLKSWAGNUT Fastest VW Belt Changer
Joined: October 14, 2007 Posts: 11053 Location: Flippin' a Belt........ .... Off-n-On ... NC USA
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Posted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 8:17 am Post subject: Re: Brake Cylinder Shelf Life |
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79SuperVert wrote: |
Any tips on where to find? Bremszylinder paste doesn't seem to be available in the US. I can get it from overseas but the shipping costs are astronomical. |
Nope... I use the brake fluid I plan to use.. that's the most common practice in the industry.
I have used this in the past..
https://www.brakepartsinc.com/raybestos/en-us/catalog-part-search.html
I was merely trying to note there is a difference between Glycol and Silicon based products..
. _________________ aka Ken {o\!/o}
Its your vehicle- stop askin' for approval-do what YOU like for cryin' out loud
Better to roll em' how you want and wear em' out-than lettin' em' rot out
Its about the going not the showing
Rebuilt to drive not decorate
WANTED: Local Eatin' Joints, Triple D for TheSamba contributions here http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=570510
Search "VOLKSWAGNUT" on YouTube since you cant watch a "certain" BELT change video round here
Usually and often edited |
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79SuperVert Samba Member
Joined: May 31, 2002 Posts: 9758 Location: Elizabeth, NJ & La Isla Del Encanto
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Posted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 8:31 am Post subject: Re: Brake Cylinder Shelf Life |
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Thanks. _________________ Central Jersey VW Society
Wanted: Art Collins VW (Savannah, Georgia) items - license plate surrounds and other items. Also ivory "AM", "FM" and "SW" buttons for a US Blaupunkt Frankfurt. |
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bluebus86 Banned
Joined: September 02, 2010 Posts: 11075
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79SuperVert Samba Member
Joined: May 31, 2002 Posts: 9758 Location: Elizabeth, NJ & La Isla Del Encanto
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Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 7:05 pm Post subject: Re: Brake Cylinder Shelf Life |
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I opened up the 12 year old cylinder tonight. As soon as I removed the clip, the piston slid out smoothly. Seals appeared still wet, the piston and cylinder looked clean. I closed it up and will be installing it on the Beetle tomorrow.
Thanks to everyone for their input and advice. _________________ Central Jersey VW Society
Wanted: Art Collins VW (Savannah, Georgia) items - license plate surrounds and other items. Also ivory "AM", "FM" and "SW" buttons for a US Blaupunkt Frankfurt. |
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Cusser Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006 Posts: 31271 Location: Hot Arizona
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Posted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 7:25 am Post subject: Re: Brake Cylinder Shelf Life |
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79SuperVert wrote: |
I opened up the 12 year old cylinder tonight. As soon as I removed the clip, the piston slid out smoothly. Seals appeared still wet, the piston and cylinder looked clean. I closed it up and will be installing it on the Beetle tomorrow.
Thanks to everyone for their input and advice. |
In the words of Mark Tucker: "lettuce no" !!! _________________ 1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297 |
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