| Author |
Message |
Kashufo
Samba Member
Joined: March 01, 2013
Posts: 46
Location: San Diego
|
 Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 9:30 pm Post subject: 72 type 3 master Cylinder Change to type 1 master cylinder |
 |
|
i need help tired of looking for solution on brakes.
My 72 squareback master cylinder is leaking and i am tired of buying expensive parts for it. someone told me that i can change the master cylinder from a type 1 bug that the only thing that i have to change is the push-rod is this true or is possible please help |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 9:46 pm Post subject: Re: 72 type 3 master Cylinder Change to type 1 master cylinder |
|
|
| Kashufo wrote: |
i need help tired of looking for solution on brakes.
My 72 squareback master cylinder is leaking and i am tired of buying expensive parts for it. someone told me that i can change the master cylinder from a type 1 bug that the only thing that i have to change is the push-rod is this true or is possible please help |
Sure....you could...but if you pull out the springs and pistons.....you will notice that the springs for the front and back cur uit are different between each car type.
What this does.....in master cylinders....is when you push the pedal.....the first piston touching the pushrod starts moving.....compressing its own spring The INNER piston may not start to move yet...because it has a higher or different spring tension.......or it may start moving at the same time....but at a slower rate.
This is designed as brake bias setting. Each cars front to rear weight ratio is different. You may want "X" percentage of braking to happen first in the front or rear before "Y" braking starts to happen in the other circuit.
This is to keep the inertial shift of the car under control so one axle does not lose traction too soon.
So yes.....the type 1 cylinder WILL bolt into the type 3.....and will function......but one day....with one particular type of braking on maybe a wet road.......your backend may pass the front......and your ride becomes a parts car.
Yes.....you can buy after market brake pressure regulators snd brake bias set ups.....and they take a bit of work to set up.....and they cost money.
ACVWs in general snd type es in specific....are not cheap to work on.
New master cylinders for your car at,Rockauto... $79.99. Or....rebuild kit for $24.79. Either is actually quite reasonable. Is $79 worth the risk?
Rebuild your cylinder..... or sell it and buy a Honda. 
Ray |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
old DKP driver
Samba Member
Joined: March 30, 2005
Posts: 4145
Location: Los Gatos,Ca.
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 10:30 pm Post subject: Re: 72 type 3 master Cylinder Change to type 1 master cylinder |
|
|
Please, Just buy the M/Cylinder from autohausaz.com and realize that the
correct parts are really the Only cure for for problem
_________________
V.W.owner since 1967 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
piledriver
Samba Member
Joined: June 05, 2003
Posts: 184
Location: In my bunker, beside my wall. (Howe, Tx)
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 3:12 am Post subject: Re: 72 type 3 master Cylinder Change to type 1 master cylinder |
|
|
So... To set up a stock master cylinder without the brake biasing shennanigans, I suppose I could simply use matched springs for both circuits...?
I have correctly sized calipers front and rear to set the brake bias, and have it configured in a dual diagonal, so any residual factory "help" is absolutely not desirable.
(wilwood 4x1.25" in front calipers, 4x28mm Brembo (944T) rear calipers, 298mm vented discs)
Having said that, it stops like I caught the anchor on a stump wet or dry, so I'm dubious how much master cylinder bias effect is actually happening, as it stops dead straight and now...
...it should at least pull to one side a little initially if there was brake bias or even a delay F/R going on in the master..
The stock master size works perfect.
I probably have a Chinese master installed, maybe they didn't copy exactly and used the same F/R setup?
Weren't some of the late T1 setups dual diagonal from the factory?
On available Swedish setup for late t3 was also split diagonal with 4 pots up front... with dual circuit front calipers, I used that diagram/layout on my previous setup.
As reman units don't seem to be available anymore from the regular parts stores, I guess next time it gets an aftermarket master cylinder from Wilwood et al.
_________________
Current daily driver---73 Square, 1.8L T4, MS3+MS3X/sequential w/LS2 coils 80 miles/day. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:25 am Post subject: Re: 72 type 3 master Cylinder Change to type 1 master cylinder |
|
|
| piledriver wrote: |
So... To set up a stock master cylinder without the brake biasing shennanigans, I suppose I could simply use matched springs for both circuits...?
I have correctly sized calipers front and rear to set the brake bias, and have it configured in a dual diagonal, so any residual factory "help" is absolutely not desirable.
(wilwood 4x1.25" in front calipers, 4x28mm Brembo (944T) rear calipers, 298mm vented discs)
Having said that, it stops like I caught the anchor on a stump wet or dry, so I'm dubious how much master cylinder bias effect is actually happening, as it stops dead straight and now...
...it should at least pull to one side a little initially if there was brake bias or even a delay F/R going on in the master..
The stock master size works perfect.
I probably have a Chinese master installed, maybe they didn't copy exactly and used the same F/R setup?
Weren't some of the late T1 setups dual diagonal from the factory?
On available Swedish setup for late t3 was also split diagonal with 4 pots up front... with dual circuit front calipers, I used that diagram/layout on my previous setup.
As reman units don't seem to be available anymore from the regular parts stores, I guess next time it gets an aftermarket master cylinder from Wilwood et al. |
Piledriver......it can range from barely different..... to extreme. The longer the car and the higher the profile/stance.... the more "programmed" difference there must be between front and rear.
An example from hack when I lived in Dallas.....is that I too have been looking for YEARS for an MC for my 412....that is both not rare....and under $200. In search of that I welded a bracket to my 412 pedal cluster to be able to take a regular "two eared" master cylinder like virtually all other cars take.
The MC from type 3, late super and mid 80s rabbits were tried and tested extensively.
As is expected....the type 3 cylinder with the same stroke length, volume and diameter.....was actually closest to the type 4 in actual performance but it required a considerable adjustment of the rear brake proportioning valve....about 75 lbs.....to keep enough braking on the rear end to keep serious tail movement down.
The ATE super beetle cylinder....again...same circuit diameters and volume.....just about rolled the car twice on test drives. Because the super is so short and has far less rear to front inertial shift, the super can and does employ rear braking coming in both sooner and with more pressure build quicker. Even mild braking caused rear lockup with tail waggle and a sharp cut in point for the front calipers.
The rabbit cylinder was somewhere in between. The type 3 cylinder is the one that is still in the car at this point.
For what the OP wanted to do....swapping a type 1 MC to type 3 car.....one way to do it and potentially not have an issue.....is to take the springs from the type 3 MC....and install them in the same places in the type 1 cylinder.
However....this is not foolproof because:
1. Notice carefully....that the tail pins on the pistons ....which are the stroke stops....on the inner pistons are different length between the two cylinders. You may have to adjust the length of one to keep from arresting the full stroke too soon or too late.
This is why it is not simple to swap cylinders just based on equal bore length and diameter. Just because an MC has the capability to use a 30mm stroke on each circuit....does not mean that the pistons in it....use it.
So based on this....why did I not just swap the type 4 piston springs into the type 3 cylinder? Because they did not fit because the steel spring seat and piston screws were that different between the two even though they were both ATE.
The other thing that makes a huge difference.....and is probably why you had no issues with yours....aside from inertial shift.....is suspension and spring loading ...which both affect inertial shift and transfer.
My point.....is that all of this work on my car was with brand new stock suspension. Later on in this protracted test period which was spread across about 16 months....I went to the Audi 4000 strut mod on the front end....about 200% more control and a lowered front stance....and gas shocks rear with the double sway bar and solid outer links.
The car no longer dives as deep on the front end....and the rear no longer lifts as much....on braking. At that point the rear proportioning unit had to be totally readusted again even higher in pressure....and with that much stance and inertial shift improvement....it was clear that I could probably go back to a super beetle MC and manage the adjustments.
Your suspension set up I am betting is probably not stock...and going to diagonal changes all bets and gets rid of a lot of the front rear brake bias issues. This is also one of the numedous reasons .....other than safety....that most European cars in late 70s into the 80s ...went to dual diagonal.
So....yes....the front rear bias set up can make a huge difference. Its also why places like Summit....make a killing on brake pressure proportioning valves and brake bias units (these are both different things). They have about 40 pages of these parts.
Of course as I noted.....if one wants to test drive and adjust all these items....virtually any brake master cylinders of similar volume could be made to work. But if one is not,willing to do this type of work.....it can be dangerous depending on the car. Ray |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
indiana notch
Samba Member
Joined: April 29, 2012
Posts: 42
Location: indiana (notre dame)
|
| Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2020 3:07 pm Post subject: Re: 72 type 3 master Cylinder Change to type 1 master cylinder |
|
|
| I put a dual circuit beetle master cylinder in my notch 12 years ago when i got it road worthy. It's just now starting to slowly fail. Awesome pedal one traffic light, barely off the floor the next. I don't remember it being difficult when i did it. Just took a little time to get the rod set right.. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
KTPhil 
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 34021
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
|
| Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2020 3:57 pm Post subject: Re: 72 type 3 master Cylinder Change to type 1 master cylinder |
|
|
Interesting... I always thought the mounting flange was different between Types 1 and 3, The Bug was threaded and the Type 3 was plain, though I suppose you could drill out the threads.
Their use of external proportioning valves may have been different due to discs.
Brake warning light circuits changed over the years.
Seems less trouble to get the right master and (almost) be done with it. The "almost" is because often the hardline routing is different and you need to buy a suitable length of double flared brake line for one of the fronts... no biggie. See my thread:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=194303 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bobnotch
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 22431
Location: Kimball, Mi
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2020 11:11 am Post subject: Re: 72 type 3 master Cylinder Change to type 1 master cylinder |
|
|
| KTPhil wrote: |
Interesting... I always thought the mounting flange was different between Types 1 and 3, The Bug was threaded and the Type 3 was plain, though I suppose you could drill out the threads.
Their use of external proportioning valves may have been different due to discs.
Brake warning light circuits changed over the years.
Seems less trouble to get the right master and (almost) be done with it. The "almost" is because often the hardline routing is different and you need to buy a suitable length of double flared brake line for one of the fronts... no biggie. See my thread:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=194303 |
Agreed. You could always get a good used Type 3 MC, and send it to Jim Adney for rebuilding. He's done several for me over the years.
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
| Tram wrote: |
| "Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
| Tram wrote: |
| People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2020 4:03 pm Post subject: Re: 72 type 3 master Cylinder Change to type 1 master cylinder |
|
|
| KTPhil wrote: |
Interesting... I always thought the mounting flange was different between Types 1 and 3, The Bug was threaded and the Type 3 was plain, though I suppose you could drill out the threads.
Their use of external proportioning valves may have been different due to discs.
Brake warning light circuits changed over the years.
Seems less trouble to get the right master and (almost) be done with it. The "almost" is because often the hardline routing is different and you need to buy a suitable length of double flared brake line for one of the fronts... no biggie. See my thread:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=194303 |
Its interesting.....that Raybestos....sells the exact same kit MK514....with new seals and pistons for Ghia, regular beetle and very early super, dual circuit type 3 and some things. Pretty much all type 1 based, dual circuit 19mm.
So.....with all the same pistons...it means all the type 1 cylinders have the same fluid inlet port location with reference to the pistons.....and same stroke length limiter pin on the inner piston. This is the big reason you cannot go swapping around pistons between unknown cylinders.
But.....you will notice that ALL MK514 kits.....have no SPRINGS.... ....because the springs and the cylinder mounting flange are the differences between type 1 based cars.
Ray |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Tvättbjörn
Samba Member
Joined: May 07, 2004
Posts: 1431
Location: SoCal
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2020 11:10 pm Post subject: Re: 72 type 3 master Cylinder Change to type 1 master cylinder |
|
|
| Do not install a T1 MC. The pistons in Typ3 MC have more travel, because the Type3 has larger caliper pistons and larger wheel cylinder. I was able to look at the Technical drawings from ATE back in the 90's at the factory when we looked at some prototype stuff. That is how I know, Just get the correct part and be on the safe side, |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2020 8:16 am Post subject: Re: 72 type 3 master Cylinder Change to type 1 master cylinder |
|
|
| Tvättbjörn wrote: |
| Do not install a T1 MC. The pistons in Typ3 MC have more travel, because the Type3 has larger caliper pistons and larger wheel cylinder. I was able to look at the Technical drawings from ATE back in the 90's at the factory when we looked at some prototype stuff. That is how I know, Just get the correct part and be on the safe side, |
Yep.....and its odd.....I saw and measured that difference way back when and noted that rlin my reply to Piledriver back in 2017......and I just erroneously noted in my last post that tbey should be the same according to what Raybestos is selling for combined types 1 and 3 for kits.
Thats my fault. I KNEW better. I just bought two Raybestos MK 514 kits about a week ago....to steal the seals for rebuilding type 4 cylinders.
Actually THAT can be done. But I agree. If you are not rebuilding and keeping correct pistons and springs in your cylinder......just go with the correct MC complete brand new.
The question I have looking at what companies like Raybestos offers......is that if they think the pistons are the same for types 1 and 3.....what are they selling for complete cylinders for each vehicle? Ray |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
