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Wasted youth Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2012 Posts: 5134 Location: California's Hot and Smoggy Central Valley
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Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 6:11 pm Post subject: Automatic transmission installation Warning Oil pump driveshaft |
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[url=https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=674690&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=]Automatic transmission installation Warning Oil pump driveshaft[/url] |
Automatic transmission:no fluid pressure, no shift, damaged pump
1973 bus, 003 Type 3 Automatic transmission, mated to 1700cc Type 4 engine in a Baywindow bus.
I found five threads that have a 'no shifting/ poor shifting', but none address my problem. If anyone can recall this issue, I would gladly link to the proper thread.
The transmission was just completely rebuilt, with remanufactured torque converter. This was about two or three years ago; I got perhaps 200 miles on it when I discovered an engine intake valve issue. Bus got parked, and I got distracted on other stuff. Everything worked great, even when moving the bus around the block a couple of times when I pulled the entire power plant in January because the engine needed serious work. Engine and transmission pulled as a unit, easily separated. Transmission rolled out of the way, then rejoined later to refreshed engine. No issues during mating up.
1) I ensured the pump drive shaft was in place. I felt no binding or weirdness when put back together.
2) ATF fluid level is topped off, checked multiple times.
3) Vacuum verified to vacuum modulator, there are no vacuum leaks.
4) Shift linkage reinstalled and properly adjusted per the Bentley procedure found Chptr. 7, Item 13.1 and this has been done three times now.
5) Verified the torque converter is spinning. Everything sounds great; no rattles, grinds, whistles or thumps.
I get no gear; as in no response when placed in any position: D, R, 1 or 2 and there is no feeling or sound at all like anything is trying to shift from Park into any of the Drive positions.
What did I miss? What can I do?
Automatic Transmission Torque Specifications T2
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Last edited by Wasted youth on Fri Mar 17, 2017 9:08 pm; edited 5 times in total |
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orwell84 Samba Member
Joined: May 14, 2007 Posts: 2536 Location: Plattsburgh, New York
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Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 6:20 pm Post subject: Re: 003 Automatic - Not shifting at all. |
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This is just a shot in the dark. I'm curious as I have the same engine and transmission. There is a ground wire on the transmission that needs to be grounded. I don't think this is your problem though. best of luck. |
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Wasted youth Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2012 Posts: 5134 Location: California's Hot and Smoggy Central Valley
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Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 6:36 pm Post subject: Re: 003 Automatic - Not shifting at all. |
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Ground strap cleaned and properly connected. White wire to transmission base connected also.
Bus now up on jack stands. Shift linkage disconnected from transmission. Shift lever on transmission seems to have a huge amount of radial slop, like it won't engage anything. Pressing it all the way back against its spring is the only time I feel anything that might be an engagement. Rotating shift lever towards front of bus I feel no resistance or shift 'bumps' at all.
Started engine, idling. Crawled underneath; shift linkage still detached, I tried to manually shift it through a full range of motion. No reaction at all. |
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Wasted youth Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2012 Posts: 5134 Location: California's Hot and Smoggy Central Valley
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Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 6:48 pm Post subject: Re: 003 Automatic - Not shifting at all. |
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I was reading the downloaded manual in our Technical Archives, and this has me wondering:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/manuals/techtran_vw_transmission_003_010/80.jpg
I am concerned that I am not building hydraulic pressure for some reason.
Given that the pump drive shaft will slide out by hand during assembly, and it needs to be inserted down into the tube before mating to the torque converter, is it possible that it might not still be engaged to the base of the pump?
Wouldn't that be obvious because the drive shaft would be too far out of the tube and also wouldn't you feel it bind when mating to the torque converter? |
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Wasted youth Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2012 Posts: 5134 Location: California's Hot and Smoggy Central Valley
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Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:37 pm Post subject: Re: 003 Automatic - Not shifting at all. |
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I opened pressure test ports; 2 - Main Pressure and 3 - Primary Throttle Pressure per Bentley, Ch. 7 Fig 3-1 on page 7-8
You're supposed to attach gauges to each port and follow the procedure specified to analyze pressures, but I do not have any of the correct fittings nor do I have the correct gauges, so I pulled the plug off the Main Pressure first, had my son start the engine and I hoped fluid would spray out, but found zero fluid coming out. It's supposed to be 45.5 PSIG at 1,000 engine RPM. I then put the plug back in that, then did the same for Primary Throttle pressure port. Nothing there, either.
Both ports did drip some fluid out when I pulled the plugs, but absolutely no pressure was seen.
I am not building hydraulic pressure for some reason.
Besides a missing or damaged Pump Drive Shaft, what else could cause the lack of pressure build up? ATF Sump level is full on the dipstick. |
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Wasted youth Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2012 Posts: 5134 Location: California's Hot and Smoggy Central Valley
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Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:51 pm Post subject: Re: 003 Automatic Type 3 in Baywindow: No shift / No fluid pressure. |
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EDITED FOR CONTENT...
Let's assume I somehow screwed up mating the engine to the transmission, and the pump drive shaft is not engaging the pump.
Aside from dropping the power train and separating it to verify this, is there another way to tell if the pump is rotating?
Could there be something in the Throttle Body or Vacuum Governor Unit (Modulator) be stuck and not allowing the pump to draw a suction?
My understanding of basic, initial fluid flow is that it goes from the pan/sump to the filter, to the pick-tube and drawn into the pump, and then discharged to the Throttle Body Manual Valve, and then distributed through the Throttle Body depending on what Shift Lever and operation is required.
It is also my understanding that the pump is positive displacement, so even if there was air in the suction side of the pump, it would eventually be purged if there was sufficient fluid.
Should I consider dropping the pan and trying to see if any of the pistons are stuck? My gut tells me this is an unlikely venture, as the fluid is fresh, clean and properly filled. I suppose a piston could get stuck if it were sitting around for months in bad fluid, but I moved the bus under its own power in December. Also, I am not knowledgeable about theory, so is it possible that one of the pistons could be causing a failure of fluid pressure build up? |
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Alex6373 Samba Member
Joined: August 05, 2007 Posts: 882 Location: Vancouver Island,B.C.
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Posted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 8:31 am Post subject: Re: 003 Automatic Type 3 in Baywindow: No shift / No fluid pressure. |
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Make sure the gear selector is aligned right and not positioned just off the position to drive I had my 003 completely rebuilt and I had to adjust the cable at the trans a bit to get the Transmission to find the drive positions.
Mine was off just a bit and would not move also! |
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Wasted youth Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2012 Posts: 5134 Location: California's Hot and Smoggy Central Valley
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Posted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 9:27 am Post subject: Re: 003 Automatic Type 3 in Baywindow: No shift / No fluid pressure. |
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I tested all four pressure taps and I got nothing out of any of them while at idle and manually cycling the shift lever. I left all four plugs out, then I briefly increased engine RPM then looked underneath for a spray or puddle of ATF, but nothing found so shut it down. Want to avoid heating things up if there is no ATF moving in there.
I have left the linkage removed from the cab shift tower and the bus is still up on jack stands.
Dropped the pan and checked for shrapnel and debris, but it was clean.
Made a new pan gasket, refilled the fluid with fresh Dexron.
No improvement - no action. |
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rugblaster Samba Member
Joined: March 31, 2016 Posts: 1170 Location: San Angelo, Texas
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Posted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 9:46 am Post subject: Re: 003 Automatic Type 3 in Baywindow: No shift / No fluid pressure. |
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This is a total shot in the dark, I haven't worked on these in several decades. I did go to the factory school for the repair of these units.
As you already know, there is a oil pump driveshaft that goes from the torque converter to the oil pump in the trans. I suspect something has compromised the driveshaft. I did have one that snapped in two just past the splines on one end.
I know that shaft is relatively fragile, even brittle. You will have to take it apart to find out. I can't think of any other way. I have pulled the automatic part from the final drive with the engine still in the bus, but I don't remember the specifics other than tilting it down in the front. _________________ '69 Karmy, '69 Camper, Meyers clone, '65 drag bug, 10.78 @ 128 (sold it) '51 Dodge farm truck,
'09 MB E350 '18 MB E400, '65 Plymouth Valiant convertible and a '19 Ford F250 King Ranch (nicer, but dirty, farm truck)
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ASE Master Certification
VWoA Assoc. of Quality Technicians inductee (One of 25 in the five state southwest region)
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TCU ......GO FROGS!!!!!! |
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Wasted youth Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2012 Posts: 5134 Location: California's Hot and Smoggy Central Valley
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Posted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 10:30 am Post subject: Re: 003 Automatic Type 3 in Baywindow: No shift / No fluid pressure. |
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rugblaster wrote: |
This is a total shot in the dark, I haven't worked on these in several decades. I did go to the factory school for the repair of these units.
There is a oil pump driveshaft that goes from the torque converter to the oil pump in the trans. I suspect something has compromised the driveshaft.
I know that shaft is relatively fragile, even brittle. You will have to take it apart to find out. I can't think of any other way. |
This is the direction I am headed. I know that during assembly, you need to carefully index that shaft into the base of the pump, then twist it by hand. If you feel smooth resistance, then it is indexed properly, but if it spins freely then it is not indexed, but resting on top of the pump driving gear. You can also see that the drive shaft sticks out too far unless it is properly seated.
The mating up of trans to engine would be impeded by the drive shaft sticking out too far if it is not seated properly. I was very confident I did this right, but I really can't think of anything else at this point but to remove engine and transmission, separate them and see. You could probably force it together, but I think it would be obvious it won't fit right.
One problem with this process, is that the drive shaft easily slides in and out. I suppose it is possible that I missed this, but it all felt very right coming together. |
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Multi69s Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2006 Posts: 5363 Location: Lefty, CA
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Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 4:49 pm Post subject: Re: 003 Automatic Type 3 in Baywindow: No shift / No fluid pressure. |
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Before you pull it, add more trans fluid. The way these dipsticks are inserted and wipe the edges when they go in and out makes checking the fluid difficult at best. Throw another quart in, at worst it comes out the top breather.
If you pull it inspect the pump shaft at both ends, and using a flashlight examine the splines in the torque converter and the transmission pump. I have seen these spline get destroyed by improper engine installation. _________________ 69 road Bug 2110
73 Squareback - 2L, T4, Automatic W/ AC
Gone, but many fond memories 69 Baja Bug 2010 - 5 Rib Bus Transaxle
Gone but not forgotten 72 Baja Bug 2010
My builds
T4 into Squareback http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=458944&highlight=
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AC in Squareback https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...highlight= |
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Wasted youth Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2012 Posts: 5134 Location: California's Hot and Smoggy Central Valley
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Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 7:38 pm Post subject: Re: 003 Automatic Type 3 in Baywindow: No shift / No fluid pressure. |
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Thanks for the insight. I'll try to add a bit more fluid, but I'm pretty confident at this point I somehow scewed up the reinstallation. I asked a coworker of mine who rebuilds transmissions as a sideline to read this thread, and he responded along the same lines as you and rugblaster
By the way, Mutli69s, it was your 003 rebuild thread that inspired me to rebuild mine! You paved the way for me on that, and it ran fine! (Until I done mess' with it! )
The possibility that I let the driveshaft become un-indexed during the mating up may be compounded by it jamming and damaging either end as I tightened everything up.
Only way to tell is by removing and separating the engine/transmission and take a look.
Yay!
That won't be this week, but I will post results... no matter how embarrassing. |
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Wasted youth Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2012 Posts: 5134 Location: California's Hot and Smoggy Central Valley
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Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 4:55 pm Post subject: Re: 003 Automatic Type 3 in Baywindow: No shift / No fluid pressure. |
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This morning, I pulled this all out again...
So I could try to find out why my refreshed engine that I married up to my rebuilt transmission still did not get me down the road...
I have discovered that I have ruined my oil pump. The Oil Pump Driveshaft was not seated properly and ruined the impeller when I put it all together. This happened because I failed to install the Torque Converter onto the Turbine and Oil Pump drive shafts once I verified they were both properly seated.
What I actually did was leave the Torque Converter installed on the Flex Plate on the engine, then carefully aligned the TC onto the aforementioned driveshafts and married up the engine and transmission. I did it that way based on my memory... which served me poorly and was grossly incorrect.
You should not do it that way.
Always install the TC as mentioned above, marry the engine up and then rotate the mass while lining up and installing the three Flex Plate bolts that hold the TC to the Flex Plate. If you don't, there is great risk in having the Torque Converter not marry up the Oil Pump Driveshaft on both ends of the splined shaft... one end to the TC and one end to the Oil Pump.. and the damage could occur. It can seem like you have them indexed, and you probably do at the beginning of the move. But the natural movements and shaking of the two units coming together likely jarred the driveshaft out of its seat in the Oil Pump. Kiss it all good-bye once you bolt everything in place. Of course, you won't know how fucked you are until after everything is completely installed and you try to drive the bus.
I did find some information in the Bentley about TC install, and also on how to remove it from the Flex Plate, but nothing so far that warns of the danger that doing it the way I did could allow the Pump Driveshaft from dropping out of its impeller in the Oil Pump without me knowing it. The damage occurs when this is all buttoned up, and the shaft now press back against the impeller with nowhere to go except shattering the impeller.
I found this thread, where this poor guy suffered what seems to be the same problem:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=4023187#4023187
I removed the Turbine Shaft and the Oil Pump Driveshaft and took a mini maglight and looked down in there. I can see the broken impeller, and cannot ever find the seat for the driveshaft.
The Oil Pump Drive shaft splines looked great and indexed nicely into my rebuilt Torque Converter...
But it didn't matter, because the Oil Pump impeller was all broken up so there was nothing the driveshaft could turn... which is why I could not develop fluid pressure! It is not supposed to look like this: The Oil Pump Driveshaft is too far down into the Turbine shaft indicating serious damage to the oil pump.
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50337
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Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 6:51 pm Post subject: Re: 003 Automatic Type 3 in Baywindow: No shift / No fluid pressure. |
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I like to stand the tranny on end to install the TC. Even then it can be hard to get the splines to align. You then need to wire the TC in place so that it can not come off the splines if bumped or otherwise mishandled during install. |
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Tcash Samba Member
Joined: July 20, 2011 Posts: 12844 Location: San Jose, California, USA
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Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 7:07 pm Post subject: Re: 003 Automatic Type 3 in Baywindow: No shift / No fluid pressure. |
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That sucks. |
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Wasted youth Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2012 Posts: 5134 Location: California's Hot and Smoggy Central Valley
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Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 10:08 pm Post subject: Re: 003 Automatic Type 3 in Baywindow: No shift / No fluid pressure. |
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Wildthings wrote: |
I like to stand the tranny on end to install the TC. Even then it can be hard to get the splines to align. You then need to wire the TC in place so that it can not come off the splines if bumped or otherwise mishandled during install. |
I can visualize this and totally agree. It might take a bit of effort to handle the transmission up on end, then back down, but one way or another it is absolutely critical that the Oil Pump Driveshaft and the Turbine Driveshaft are both properly seated and remain that way. Only at that point can the Torque Converter be installed, and must be installed onto those shafts, and not the Flex/Drive plate. That comes later.
Rotating the TC back and forth like Bentley instructs will allow both shafts to seat properly onto their respective splined shafts inside the TC. Wiring or zip-tying the TC to the frame of the Final Drive is a great idea. I expect that the tragedy would always occur when the TC movement on the shafts allows slop to be introduced in the works during reassembly, so preventing that slop from happening by holding the TC against the drive shafts is a key idea. Otherwise, that slop could invite the Oil Pump Driveshaft to quietly disengage, fall in front of the impeller ready to punch through it when you mate and tighten the engine to the transmission. The opposite of this would be if that driveshaft remains engaged in the Oil Pump, but becomes disengaged from the Torque Converter. I expect similar damage to the TC would occur.
Yes, it certainly does. It's not like I can go to Napa and order a new oil pump. I basically now have to find a core and hope some ding dong before me didn't do the same damned thing I did. |
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Xevin Samba Member
Joined: January 08, 2014 Posts: 7624
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Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 11:14 pm Post subject: Re: 003 Automatic Type 3 in Baywindow: No shift / No fluid pressure. |
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Ah shitski Wasted youth. That's a bummer. But you will solve the puzzle. Bus on. PM on its way. _________________ Keep on Busin'
67rustavenger wrote: |
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
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Damn that Xevin... |
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I respect Xevin and he's a turd |
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My God! Xevin and I 100% agree |
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Wasted youth Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2012 Posts: 5134 Location: California's Hot and Smoggy Central Valley
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Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 11:18 pm Post subject: Re: 003 Automatic Type 3 in Baywindow: No shift / No fluid pressure. |
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Thanks, Xevin... will be looking.
Also, I will be digging around for information, but does anyone know off the top of their head if the oil pumps were interchangeable through the 010 series (later models, up into the water-cooled Vanagon era) transmissions?
Wonder if I can replace the damaged impeller off this 003 with one off an 010? |
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Abscate Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014 Posts: 22640 Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 3:04 am Post subject: Re: 003 Automatic Type 3 in Baywindow: No shift / No fluid pressure. |
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This mistake will never be made again on the Samba.
Thanks for the write up and share. Painful, but this is how we all get smarter. _________________ .ssS! |
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Wasted youth Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2012 Posts: 5134 Location: California's Hot and Smoggy Central Valley
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Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 7:03 am Post subject: Re: 003 Automatic Type 3 in Baywindow: No shift / No fluid pressure. |
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Abscate wrote: |
This mistake will never be made again on the Samba. |
Ha! Wish that were true, but I bet within three years we will be reading a fresh and nearly identical thread. I'm also willing to bet that now that I know what happened, I could probably find several other threads along the same vein. |
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