Automatic transmission installation Warning Oil pump driveshaft

[aeromech]

If you need help with the ignition send me a pm or just call
_________________
Lead Mechanic: San Diego Air and Space Museum
Licensed Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic
Licensed Pilot (Single engine Land)
Boeing 727,737-200-300-400,757,767
Airbus A319,320,321
DC9/MD80
BAe146
Fokker F28/F100
VW type 1 1962,63,65,69,72
VW Type 2 1971 (3 ea.) 1978, 1969
VW Jetta
VW Passat
Capable of leaping tall buildings in a single bound

[Wasted youth]

[Wasted youth]

[aeromech]

Unless you lost the key or the actual lock is broken you just don't remove the lock cylinder. To change the electrical switch the lock stays in place and isn't too hard
_________________
Lead Mechanic: San Diego Air and Space Museum
Licensed Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic
Licensed Pilot (Single engine Land)
Boeing 727,737-200-300-400,757,767
Airbus A319,320,321
DC9/MD80
BAe146
Fokker F28/F100
VW type 1 1962,63,65,69,72
VW Type 2 1971 (3 ea.) 1978, 1969
VW Jetta
VW Passat
Capable of leaping tall buildings in a single bound

[Wasted youth]

The lock cylinder was worn out years ago. The wafers, pins and springs are no longer allowing the key to work.

The switch is cracked and allows the lock cylinder tab to lift out of it's engagement.

Actually, not bad for 44 years of service!

[aeromech]

There's a couple guys here that can help. Send them a key and they will send back the keyed lock cylinder. It's worth it if you want all your locks the same. Gabe is good a near Pamona I think. Kinda slow and hard to reach. He has a website.

Getting them out sucks. I've never been able to using the hook method.
_________________
Lead Mechanic: San Diego Air and Space Museum
Licensed Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic
Licensed Pilot (Single engine Land)
Boeing 727,737-200-300-400,757,767
Airbus A319,320,321
DC9/MD80
BAe146
Fokker F28/F100
VW type 1 1962,63,65,69,72
VW Type 2 1971 (3 ea.) 1978, 1969
VW Jetta
VW Passat
Capable of leaping tall buildings in a single bound

[Multi69s]

[Wasted youth]

I could probably get set up for something like that. I'll post that progress in the actual bus thread. I want to close out this thread with pictures and commentary that focuses on the transmission problem. I haven't sat down and edited and uploaded all the pictures I took this week, and I'm starting to drift here...

[Wasted youth]

So it has been awhile since I promised to update this thread. In that time, I have looked all over for the memory card that had all my pictures of the work. I had used my daughter's camera as mine had finally quit. No one in my family seems to know what happened to the memory card, so I have no pictures to show yet.

However...

The root cause of my transmission troubles is that I reassembled the engine and transmission incorrectly, and caused damage to the small pump impeller. Bentley calls this a Drive plate. See Bentley, page 7-24, Fig 10-11 -ATF Pump - part no. 3

This is actually a surprisingly fragile part, made of cast iron it seems, not forged or stamped steel.

The damage occurred by allowing the Oil Pump drive shaft to become un-indexed, and when the engine and transmission were mated up, the shaft got shoved back by the Torque Converter and just punched right through the impeller/drive plate. The good news is that local Samba member Multi69s had a spare pump! Thanks very much for the offer, but on a whim I stopped by Trans Parts Incorporated in Fresno expecting nothing, but they actually had a pump out of an 010 transmission. Sold to me for $38! So Lucky!

These pumps are NOT interchangeable, but only because the 010 is a different length. (I took comparing pictures of them... just wish I could share!), but although they are not interchangeable as a unit, the individual parts are. I changed over the impeller and two of the sealing rings, which are very delicate in that they will easily break off their interlocking tabs when you remove or install them.

To do this work, the entire transmission had to be disassembled. The pump is the bottom most component. It is actually a relatively easy job that can be done in less than an hour once the transmission is on the bench. The one time-consuming aspect is trying to line up all the clutch pack teeth of the Direct and Reverse clutch so the Forward clutch can be nested back correctly! I bet there is a trick to that, but I simply used transmission assembly goop and a needle/scribe to gently guide all those teeth. Every time you try to index the assembly, you will bump them, and have to start over.

Anyway, once all this work was done, I got to the point where I could re-damage my transmission. But this time, I assembled it correctly

1) With transmission separated from engine, place transmission horizontal. Ensure Turbine driveshaft is seated into transmission. Next, insert Oil Pump driveshaft into the Turbine Driveshaft. It will need to index into the pump. You will know it is incorrectly seated if you can twist it with your finger tips and it just rolls around. It will also stick out of the of the Turbine Driveshaft far enough for you to get a good grip.

It is correctly seated when you can only grip it with your fingertips and you can feel smooth resistance as you twist it. You are driving the Oil Pump now with your fingertips. I have a bunch of pictures of all this... somewhere.

These two shafts MUST REMAIN SEATED or you will suffer my fate.

2) With both shafts properly seated, rotate entire transmission vertical. I used a small furniture dolly to support it. It's easier than you think. Thanks to Wildthings for this idea!

I did not want to install the drive shaft when the unit was vertical for fear of letting the driveshaft slip out of my oily fingers, and punch a new hole in the impeller.

3) Place Torque Converter on top of the shafts. It will not magically seat itself; you will rotate it back and forth as it nests into each shaft. There will be two distinct thunks as it does this, one for each shaft. You will find this somewhat difficult to do. This is because there is no room for your fingers to hold the damn thing as it nests inside the transmission case/bell. I used some scrap wire around the lugs of the Torque Convert to suspend it with one hand. Made it much more manageable. The TC will be properly seated when A) you feel the two distinct thunks, B) when the noticeable wobble is nearly all gone, and C) when the TC is below then end of the bell, not sticking out at all. Not sure if it is? Start over and do it again. Make sure you get this right! I suspect the damage I did to the Oil Pump could easily be replicated in the Torque Converter.

4) Now, a very important step (again, thanks to Wildthings!)... WIRE OR ZIP TIE the Torque Converter to the transmission case. Do this in a way that keeps them from interfering with mating the case to the engine. DO NOT let it slide forward or off the shafts! The TC holds the drive shaft captive in its seats. Letting it slide forward will allow the driveshaft to misbehave.

5) Re-position the transmission horizontal and mate to engine/flex/drive plate. Mate engine and transmission together, LEAVING TORQUE CONVERTER ZIP-TIED TO THE CASE. Don't cut those off yet. Bolt the engine to the transmission, leaving the starter off. That will get in your way later if you put it on now.

6) Once you have the transmission and engine mated up (two bottom studs and one top bolt on driver's side) then you can cut loose the Torque Converter because it is now captive. It cannot possibly slide too far forward and off the shafts. In fact, it is now time to mate the TC to the Flex/Drive plate. Rotate the engine to do this.

7) Reinstall power train into bus.

DO NOT leave Torque Converter attached to engine's Flex/Drive plate and try to mate up transmission to that, thinking the drive shafts will stay put. They probably won't.

So I'm back in business. Bus drives but it's been sitting so long that one of the brake calipers has seized. I got this problem resolved, next is to resolve the final gear shifting on the transmission. It won't go into third gear unless I let off the accelerator a little, so as to create a higher vacuum. It will shift at that point.

[Multi69s]

Time to adjust the vacuum modulator.
_________________
69 road Bug 2110
73 Squareback - 2L, T4, Automatic W/ AC
Gone, but many fond memories 69 Baja Bug 2010 - 5 Rib Bus Transaxle
Gone but not forgotten 72 Baja Bug 2010
My builds
T4 into Squareback http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=458944&highlight=
Auto Trans Rebuild http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=516066&highlight=
AC in Squareback https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...highlight=

[raygreenwood]

[Wasted youth]

Well, I finally found the SD card that had the pictures of this work. Here is what it looks like when the Oil Pump Driveshaft has punched through the drive flange:

Here is what it supposed to look like:

added 9/21/17 Tcash

This is the drive flange damage:

Here is the donor pump from an 010 transmission, next to my 003 damaged pump:

These are both of those pumps opened up... it seems like the pump internals are isnterchangeable, but the pump bodies themselves are different.

Close-up view of the part that got ruined. Seems like it is just cast iron or cast steel. Not a forging or billet machined part. That heavy steel driveshaft nests in those splines and transmits the driving energy that the oil pump needs from the Torque Converter. This is a relatively fragile part, in my opinion.

One other note: the oil pumps have sealing rings that are similar in principal to piston rings, but they are installed with designed-in locking tabs. These tabs are very easily broken when trying to get them to engage or disengage if you are adding or removing. Be careful!

Reinstallation:

Best way: While transmission is horizontal, I inserted the driveshaft. I did not want to risk having the driveshaft slip out of my fingers and land on that small part deep down in there and have it break through it. After that, I did like Wildthings noted and inverted the transmission. I stabilized it on a small furniture dolly.

Then, I made a wire bundle to help me gently place the Torque Converter onto the transmission. Care must also be exercised at this point: You need to index the TC onto the Turbine Driveshaft and the Oil Pump Driveshaft and it is done by rotating clockwise/counter-clockwise while gently allowing the TC to 'fall' down onto the shafts as the splines index. You'll feel distinct 'thunks' as this happens. It is properly seated when you feel them, and the TC is recessed into the bell housing, and when very little axial play can be felt. Spin the TC back and forth at any step of the way, and you will notice distinct differences in how it sets.

Then, zip tie that sucker so it won't move off those shafts! I don't need to really explain the importance of this again, right?!

Then mate it up to the engine. I just put the starter on there for pictorial reference. Don't install the starter yet, it will just get in the way when you hang the powertrain under the bus. At this point, the TC is captive and won't slide far enough off the shafts to cause a problem. When the transmission is snug to the engine and you have the bottom two nuts and one of the top bolts tight, cut off the zip ties. Rotate the TC up to where one of the anchor bolts can be accessed through the engine case. I used red Lock-tight and torqued each down. The torque spec is in the Bentley. Then, hand crank the engine over to rotate the TC around to finish the work.

Reinstall the powertrain, with or without the controversial Weber Progressive carb.

[piledriver]

The "drive flower" for the oil pump is the same part on the 003 and 010, and available stock or aftermarket, in CrMo even.
Its a wear part, and perhaps designed to "take the bullet" for everything else.

I have been fighting to get the converter to drop back on for the last couple hours, oil pump feels fine, its not dropping into the stator for that last ~3/8" unless I pull BOTH of the other shafts... Got the trans used and went through it, found some stupid prior rebuild issues (axial scratches on governer shaft at seal etc, polished out) but it was mostly pristine, amazingly the diff was still OK.

Does anyone have a good reference pic as to how far the 3 shafts should be sticking out when all is right and ready for the converter? Getting paranoid, have the trans on end and it still won't drop.

Have verified no burrs on all 3 shafts etc, converter drop into place but the input shaft has to be out.

EDIT: Figured it out, I think.
Reversed the process, the input shaft splines barely engage/go into the converter.
Deburred the splines on the input shaft a little, but they look fine.

I'm wondering if this is why the input shaft had some visible pliers action from being jammed in one way or the other. Gently tapping the input shaft into the converter mating hole with a brass hammer doesn't do anything except make me want a bigger hammer, so I'm going to dig out the Vanagon converter I was planning on using anyway
(I just wanted to quickly stuff it in the car and do a trial fit with the motor etc... and grabbed the converter it came with. Great way to spend the evening.)


Perhaps that why the transmission looked so clean inside//seals all still in great shape etc... It may have been parked for decades. Either that or this is the wrong converter... but it looks right, not a whole lot of cars used air cooled converters. (although they were mostly all Borg Warner, which the 003/010 etc are, licensed by VW)
_________________
Current daily driver---73 Square, 1.8L T4, MS3+MS3X/sequential w/LS2 coils 80 miles/day.

[Multi69s]

Pile,

I have a complete trans sitting in my C-Train, I will try and remember to take a picture tomorrow. However, PM me to remind me, I'm in the middle of 2 projects right now.
_________________
69 road Bug 2110
73 Squareback - 2L, T4, Automatic W/ AC
Gone, but many fond memories 69 Baja Bug 2010 - 5 Rib Bus Transaxle
Gone but not forgotten 72 Baja Bug 2010
My builds
T4 into Squareback http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=458944&highlight=
Auto Trans Rebuild http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=516066&highlight=
AC in Squareback https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...highlight=

[piledriver]

Figured it out, the converter that came with the trans was pooched.
Input shaft won't drop in the converter splines more than ~1/4", if that.

The vanagon converter ~fell in place in after a few twists and wiggles as expected.
That 30 second job took hours and a lot of violent cussing due to some PO or idiot mechanic.


The flex plate bolt pads on the converter should be appx 1/2" in from the trans flange face.
That's the go/no go measurement to be concerned with.
(amazingly happens to be about the same distance the flex plate sticks out from the engine flange)

Noticed the late Vanagon (090) pump shaft projects a touch more and is... pointed, and the splines taper down to the end to center/engage very easy.
The early 003 pump shaft just has a small bevel to center.

The input shaft should be ~even with the stator (outer) spline bit that doesn't move on the trans, and the pump shaft should stick out a bit less than 1/2", and you should be able to feel it engage, slide in a bit and feel it turning the pump when its engaged.
(resistance, but smooth, feels-like-turning-an-oil-pump resistance)

Closer inspection of the bad converter revealed the circular shaft centering bit around the splines was oval shaped like someidiot had been using a prybar in it.

The shaft seems to have been hanging up where the bearing area starts, wouldn't go fully in the hole as the sides had been pulled in.
I'm guessing It had probably been hammered in previously.
I need to straighten it out a bit tomorrow to put it on the Vanagon trans to keep it sealed up.

Considering drilling the converter for two drain plugs 180 out so I can drain/flush it etc.
(drill/tap, short ~6/32 or so button head screws with good anerobic sealant, should be fine)

If its thick enough for those thick fillet welds for the flexplate tabs, its plenty thick enough for plugs, maybe even NPT.
(some converters have a drain plug from the factory, just not VWs, seems stupid not to be able to drain/flush a converter)

I'll try it on the bad converter first.
_________________
Current daily driver---73 Square, 1.8L T4, MS3+MS3X/sequential w/LS2 coils 80 miles/day.

[Wasted youth]

I edited my post above... I forgot to include the picture of what it is supposed to look like with the shafts properly seated. It's now included!

As far as using a hammer on any of this... I would think the need to do that would indicate problems.

Can you provide a source for that drive piece? My local parts house shows it NLA and I would like to replace the one from my 010

[piledriver]

That seal is in backwards. It's on the lower pressure return side, but still...

Jeff Fields (transaxleengineering at gmail.com) Transaxle Engineering has the CrMo versions, mandatory in their hipo 090s with higher line pressures/manual valve bodies. May have a line on the stock bit too.

ECS tuning and a lot of other online vendors list the stock 003 321 273 part, which just means it still exists in some distributors inventory. Audi used it in several models up to the 200.
Might be the cheapest Porsche part ever, although I cannot think of what Porsche used a 010 variant...
https://www.ecstuning.com/b-genuine-porsche-parts/oil-pump-carrier/003321273~por/
_________________
Current daily driver---73 Square, 1.8L T4, MS3+MS3X/sequential w/LS2 coils 80 miles/day.

[Wasted youth]

Thank you very much for that supplier information! I will look into that.

There are actually two of the same seals in there, in opposing directions. This was based on a suggestion when I rebuilt the transmission a few years ago. The idea is that the second seal in opposed direction apparently greatly reduces the occasional problem of very hot ATF from leaking past the single seal and contaminating the Final Drive gear oil. Whether this is true or not, I cannot say, but it is (hopefully) cheap insurance.

[piledriver]

That seal can only leak to the outside world, but that setup makes for a good dust seal.

I used the old seal for that. The original style white silicone seals could pop out, the new seals are metal body with a thin sealant covering. silicone doesn't stick to silicone too well...

Those seals are for the return flow from the tq converter. (pressure feed is via the center of the input shaft, return passes back around its OD inside the output shaft)

The seals that will puke ATF into the diff are on either end of the output shaft (pinion shaft) and the governor seal. The inner seal for the output shaft requires the input shaft/pinion removal, but it fits inside the rear pinion bearing race so at least that doesn't have to come out. Its not that hard, just a time suck.

The governor seal CAN be driven through the hole to the inside, the inner "stop" won't much past hand pressure. (ask how I know, had to go fishing)

My governor shaft had some obnoxious scratches ~at the seal location, they polished out but as the seals were all supple and in good shape I assume that's why my diff was full of ATF mix (but apparently not driven like that, as the R&P etc were perfect)

A 13mm socket I had went through the stop as well, so I used it and extension for a driver, by hand. I'm thinking about pulling it again and installing it with locktite or something as it has to hold some pressure, and the stop doesn't resist much.
_________________
Current daily driver---73 Square, 1.8L T4, MS3+MS3X/sequential w/LS2 coils 80 miles/day.

[Multi69s]

Wasted,

If you are going to run the seal in that orientation, keep a constant eye on the trans fluid level. At least as often if not more then you would check you engine oil. With the orientation of the seal's lips, you have a greater chance of leakage. If the ATF hits the final drive, it will destroy it in a blink of an eye - I found out the hard way.


Pile,

If you install drain plugs in the TC, you MUST, MUST, MUST have the TC balanced afterwards. Otherwise, you will never be able to keep the flex plate bolts tight, (or they may shear), it will damage the TC's bushing area, and seals, and it will be extremely hard on the engine's main bearings as well.

I don't see a problem per say with adding drain bolts, but after talking with a TC specialist about having him change the stall speed for me, he told me that everything about the design of the VW TC is very compact, with close tolerances, so make sure you are very gentle when you drill the holes, and make sure the sealing bolts don't protrude into the TC cavity. Otherwise there could be an interference with the impellers.
_________________
69 road Bug 2110
73 Squareback - 2L, T4, Automatic W/ AC
Gone, but many fond memories 69 Baja Bug 2010 - 5 Rib Bus Transaxle
Gone but not forgotten 72 Baja Bug 2010
My builds
T4 into Squareback http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=458944&highlight=
Auto Trans Rebuild http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=516066&highlight=
AC in Squareback https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...highlight=