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Automatic transmission installation Warning Oil pump driveshaft
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piledriver
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 22, 2017 9:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Automatic transmission:no fluid pressure, no shift, damaged pump Reply with quote

The "drive flower" for the oil pump is the same part on the 003 and 010, and available stock or aftermarket, in CrMo even.
Its a wear part, and perhaps designed to "take the bullet" for everything else.

I have been fighting to get the converter to drop back on for the last couple hours, oil pump feels fine, its not dropping into the stator for that last ~3/8" unless I pull BOTH of the other shafts... Got the trans used and went through it, found some stupid prior rebuild issues (axial scratches on governer shaft at seal etc, polished out) but it was mostly pristine, amazingly the diff was still OK.

Does anyone have a good reference pic as to how far the 3 shafts should be sticking out when all is right and ready for the converter? Getting paranoid, have the trans on end and it still won't drop.

Have verified no burrs on all 3 shafts etc, converter drop into place but the input shaft has to be out.

EDIT: Figured it out, I think.
Reversed the process, the input shaft splines barely engage/go into the converter.
Deburred the splines on the input shaft a little, but they look fine.

I'm wondering if this is why the input shaft had some visible pliers action from being jammed in one way or the other. Gently tapping the input shaft into the converter mating hole with a brass hammer doesn't do anything except make me want a bigger hammer, so I'm going to dig out the Vanagon converter I was planning on using anyway
(I just wanted to quickly stuff it in the car and do a trial fit with the motor etc... and grabbed the converter it came with. Great way to spend the evening.)


Perhaps that why the transmission looked so clean inside//seals all still in great shape etc... It may have been parked for decades. Either that or this is the wrong converter... but it looks right, not a whole lot of cars used air cooled converters. (although they were mostly all Borg Warner, which the 003/010 etc are, licensed by VW)
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Last edited by piledriver on Sat Jul 22, 2017 11:29 pm; edited 4 times in total
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Multi69s
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 22, 2017 10:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Automatic transmission:no fluid pressure, no shift, damaged pump Reply with quote

Pile,

I have a complete trans sitting in my C-Train, I will try and remember to take a picture tomorrow. However, PM me to remind me, I'm in the middle of 2 projects right now.
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piledriver
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 22, 2017 11:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Automatic transmission:no fluid pressure, no shift, damaged pump Reply with quote

Figured it out, the converter that came with the trans was pooched.
Input shaft won't drop in the converter splines more than ~1/4", if that.

The vanagon converter ~fell in place in after a few twists and wiggles as expected.
That 30 second job took hours and a lot of violent cussing due to some PO or idiot mechanic.


The flex plate bolt pads on the converter should be appx 1/2" in from the trans flange face.
That's the go/no go measurement to be concerned with.

(amazingly happens to be about the same distance the flex plate sticks out from the engine flange)

Noticed the late Vanagon (090) pump shaft projects a touch more and is... pointed, and the splines taper down to the end to center/engage very easy.
The early 003 pump shaft just has a small bevel to center.

The input shaft should be ~even with the stator (outer) spline bit that doesn't move on the trans, and the pump shaft should stick out a bit less than 1/2", and you should be able to feel it engage, slide in a bit and feel it turning the pump when its engaged.
(resistance, but smooth, feels-like-turning-an-oil-pump resistance)

Closer inspection of the bad converter revealed the circular shaft centering bit around the splines was oval shaped like someidiot had been using a prybar in it.

The shaft seems to have been hanging up where the bearing area starts, wouldn't go fully in the hole as the sides had been pulled in.
I'm guessing It had probably been hammered in previously.
I need to straighten it out a bit tomorrow to put it on the Vanagon trans to keep it sealed up.

Considering drilling the converter for two drain plugs 180 out so I can drain/flush it etc.
(drill/tap, short ~6/32 or so button head screws with good anerobic sealant, should be fine)

If its thick enough for those thick fillet welds for the flexplate tabs, its plenty thick enough for plugs, maybe even NPT.
(some converters have a drain plug from the factory, just not VWs, seems stupid not to be able to drain/flush a converter)

I'll try it on the bad converter first.
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Wasted youth
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 1:55 am    Post subject: Re: Automatic transmission:no fluid pressure, no shift, damaged pump Reply with quote

I edited my post above... I forgot to include the picture of what it is supposed to look like with the shafts properly seated. It's now included!

As far as using a hammer on any of this... I would think the need to do that would indicate problems.

Arrow Can you provide a source for that drive piece? My local parts house shows it NLA and I would like to replace the one from my 010
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piledriver
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 11:27 am    Post subject: Re: Automatic transmission:no fluid pressure, no shift, damaged pump Reply with quote

That seal is in backwards. It's on the lower pressure return side, but still...

Jeff Fields (transaxleengineering at gmail.com) Transaxle Engineering has the CrMo versions, mandatory in their hipo 090s with higher line pressures/manual valve bodies. May have a line on the stock bit too.

ECS tuning and a lot of other online vendors list the stock 003 321 273 part, which just means it still exists in some distributors inventory. Audi used it in several models up to the 200.
Might be the cheapest Porsche part ever, although I cannot think of what Porsche used a 010 variant...
https://www.ecstuning.com/b-genuine-porsche-parts/oil-pump-carrier/003321273~por/
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 12:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Automatic transmission:no fluid pressure, no shift, damaged pump Reply with quote

Thank you very much for that supplier information! I will look into that.

There are actually two of the same seals in there, in opposing directions. This was based on a suggestion when I rebuilt the transmission a few years ago. The idea is that the second seal in opposed direction apparently greatly reduces the occasional problem of very hot ATF from leaking past the single seal and contaminating the Final Drive gear oil. Whether this is true or not, I cannot say, but it is (hopefully) cheap insurance.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 12:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Automatic transmission:no fluid pressure, no shift, damaged pump Reply with quote

That seal can only leak to the outside world, but that setup makes for a good dust seal.

I used the old seal for that. The original style white silicone seals could pop out, the new seals are metal body with a thin sealant covering. silicone doesn't stick to silicone too well...

Those seals are for the return flow from the tq converter. (pressure feed is via the center of the input shaft, return passes back around its OD inside the output shaft)

The seals that will puke ATF into the diff are on either end of the output shaft (pinion shaft) and the governor seal. The inner seal for the output shaft requires the input shaft/pinion removal, but it fits inside the rear pinion bearing race so at least that doesn't have to come out. Its not that hard, just a time suck.

The governor seal CAN be driven through the hole to the inside, the inner "stop" won't much past hand pressure. (ask how I know, had to go fishing)

My governor shaft had some obnoxious scratches ~at the seal location, they polished out but as the seals were all supple and in good shape I assume that's why my diff was full of ATF mix (but apparently not driven like that, as the R&P etc were perfect)

A 13mm socket I had went through the stop as well, so I used it and extension for a driver, by hand. I'm thinking about pulling it again and installing it with locktite or something as it has to hold some pressure, and the stop doesn't resist much.
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Last edited by piledriver on Sun Jul 23, 2017 1:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Multi69s
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 1:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Automatic transmission:no fluid pressure, no shift, damaged pump Reply with quote

Wasted,

If you are going to run the seal in that orientation, keep a constant eye on the trans fluid level. At least as often if not more then you would check you engine oil. With the orientation of the seal's lips, you have a greater chance of leakage. If the ATF hits the final drive, it will destroy it in a blink of an eye - I found out the hard way.


Pile,

If you install drain plugs in the TC, you MUST, MUST, MUST have the TC balanced afterwards. Otherwise, you will never be able to keep the flex plate bolts tight, (or they may shear), it will damage the TC's bushing area, and seals, and it will be extremely hard on the engine's main bearings as well.

I don't see a problem per say with adding drain bolts, but after talking with a TC specialist about having him change the stall speed for me, he told me that everything about the design of the VW TC is very compact, with close tolerances, so make sure you are very gentle when you drill the holes, and make sure the sealing bolts don't protrude into the TC cavity. Otherwise there could be an interference with the impellers.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 1:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Automatic transmission:no fluid pressure, no shift, damaged pump Reply with quote

That's why I was considering a pair 180 out, equidistant from center.

I'll probably cut up the bad converter to see what there is to work with, eventually, the Dex VI in the vanagon converter was clean, I changed/flushed it not too long before the rod bearings spun, and it was a "just in case" change anyway.
(Dex VI is Dex VI, same even if its Walmart branded, per GM spec if it's called Dexron VI, possibly the best thing about it)

Anyone getting a custom tq converter should probably get an OD plug added so you can at least do a full ATF drain/replacement in the vehicle next time.
Changing the ATF half a dozen times to get most of the old stuff out is for the birds, and hideously expensive if using AMSOIl or Redline ATF.

Perhaps drill a little hole, drain/flush and then TIG it back up? Twisted Evil
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 5:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Automatic transmission:no fluid pressure, no shift, damaged pump Reply with quote

Multi69s wrote:
Wasted,

If you are going to run the seal in that orientation, keep a constant eye on the trans fluid level....


Roger that! FWIW, the seal behind the visible one actually faces the opposite way.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 12:23 am    Post subject: Re: Automatic transmission:no fluid pressure, no shift, damaged pump Reply with quote

I've got about 50+ miles on this now, no issues at all. Fluid level constant, clean and smells right.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 3:44 am    Post subject: Re: Automatic transmission:no fluid pressure, no shift, damaged pump Reply with quote

Thanks again for posting the ugly laundry of mistakes. This will save many, many hours of gnashing of teeth.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 7:37 am    Post subject: Re: Automatic transmission:no fluid pressure, no shift, damaged pump Reply with quote

It sucks to dick up the works, but if it saves someone grief, I have no problem sharing my woe.
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