help building a class SCORE class 11 compliant car

[bavareze]

Hi!

i have this 73 standard beetle, i'm working on it little by little

the purpose of this purchase was to make a class 11 compliant vehicle to run the baja 1000 and, hopefully, finish it.

my biggest questions are:

- front suspension I heard needs to be cut and rotated. any idea what shop could do that in a responsible fashion?

- I also need a specific roll cage made as per specs. where do I get one?

- rear suspension: it is my understanding that I can just rotate the torsion bars and that's it. plus I need type 2 cv axles for higher play angle. is that true?

thanks!
Radu

_________________
- www.b66ama.com - 29.000 miles in South America -

[oldschool5er]

I will love to see a real C11 built again....If you can document your build for others that is even better. It can help answer correctly the questions so many wanting to even set up look alike C11's ask. God knows we need more of them actually racing and that can finish a B1k Soooo ...If you are actually planning on racing in C11 and building an actual Score race car then there are several of us here that can guide you, but you should use several sites to get answers. You being in LA gives you a wide choice in Fabricators that are experianced in building C11 cars. I can suggest a few but I would like to know what your Budget is. In racing you have to be prepared to hire quality fabricators which is Not cheap. Roll cage design and Fab is one of the first most important things that needs to be done and you cannot skimp on this. A skilled roll cage builder is going to be giving you the safest possible cage that will hold up to the rigors of Baja racing without over designing it to the point it is a tank. A good reference site also is class11coalition.com you can get a ton of valid race questions answered there and especially important will be correct interpretation of the SCORE Rule Book which in itself can be challege. There is much more to it than just cut and turn the front beam and re-index the rear torsion, as a very small example you will need to change out the rear torsion bars to race quality, bigger diameter units. The shop you choose to do the cage work can more than likely cut and turn your beam and set it up. I can offer suggestions on every part of a C11 build as I have built a few racing C11's but the coalition website and seeing examples of winning C11's will help you alot. So What is your Budget? How much are you able to skillfully do yourself? And is your goal to Finish/Win? or are you just wanting the experiance? Sorry to be blunt but Baja racing is serious time and investment even in C11 and can be and still is a survival of the fittest. If you have the drive and motivation, (money) to do this, just to finish and experiance it will be one of the most memorable and satisfying things you will ever do. There is just not alot of C11 that finish the B1k any more. I can count on just a few fingers the teams that have their act together and can be expected to win or even finish.

[3 Amigos Racing]

Cool build it! A Class 11 could be two different types of cars. one is built to SCORE Rules and the other is built to SNORE rules for stateside racing. A car built to SNORE rules can race anywhere including SCORE.

This link will get you started and the car built on SNORE rules could race stateside or Mexico.
http://www.snoreracing.net/images/pdf/rulebook/rulebook.pdf

In addition to the front beam being turned you will want to reinforce the spindles too.

Another place for good info is http://class11coalition.com/

The transmission while stock gearing will need a race prep and good differential to complete Baja miles. CV yes will need type 2.
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71 Westy
71 Class 11 Baja 1000 Car
Class 9 VW MORE Series Champ

[bavareze]

I've seen on some website that the C11 requires the lowest budget of all classes, something around running car + $3000-5000.

My goal is only to finish, without expectations of threatening victory. But I do not want to invest too much money into this as I will not be racing regularly...

I have some off roading / jeep experience as well as endurance adventures (been riding a bike from LA to Argentina and back and more) and I own a shop where we maintain newer VW so I could do some of the general work here.

But I need to know a few places that would do fabrication of components as per rulebook and that have done it before. I don't want to prep the car, sign up for the race, and then be rejected because I misinterpreted some rule...


regarding type 2 cv : I found these

http://www.autohausaz.com/search/product.aspx?sid=...CV%20Joint

do I buy 4 of these and use my shafts or there is a source of complete assembled EMPI axles for type 2?
_________________
- www.b66ama.com - 29.000 miles in South America -

[3 Amigos Racing]

There are several active Baja Class 11 teams I can introduce you to. Say hello . If you can head out to SNORE BAP and see Class 11 up close in Feb.

I think you will find the car closer to $10k to get race ready at a minimum. You can find used parts and electronics to help offset costs.

Building the car was pretty straight forward, the planning and budget for my 1st Baja 1000 was very difficult and after a year of saving, building, prepping and planning I was a DNF early due to ice pick style rock that got around the skid plates and into the rear of the motor. I would not trade the experience for anything. I hope to get back again.

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71 Westy
71 Class 11 Baja 1000 Car
Class 9 VW MORE Series Champ

[yamaducci]

Have you received your copy of the rule book? You will need to study that to the letter. I would start hanging out on race-desert.com and digging up threads there. You can also find fabricators or shops that are hungry right now. Check the classifieds and services. You will probably need a Kartek account too. You would more than likely be way further ahead and save a ton if you just bought this bug already tagged.
http://www.race-dezert.com/classifieds/index.php?ct=orrace&md=details&id=119071

I think you will find that you need way more than you think to finish or compete.
_________________
-John Cox
My 2498 Turbo Re-Build Thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=5578697#5578697

3rd Brake Light Safety Stars- I still have a couple with blue light left. Email me if interested.

[3 Amigos Racing]

Some idea of what should be prepared besides race cage:
Front end:
Cut and turn beam, reinforce spindles, german drums with studs, fox shocks with reservoirs. Add steer box tabs per rules, maintain stock column so you can race SNORE later.

Rear end:
SAW rear torsion bars and adjuster welded in. Chromo spring plates, reinforce trailing arms and relocate shock mount for longer travel. Type 2 CV's off trans and axle, 300m axles, trans rebuilt with race diff. German drums with studs.

Cage:
Per SCORE rule book only, so you can get safety tagged. Review rear shock mount location for longer travel and fox "cheater" style shocks or use the old style short shocks and mount. Either way you need race shocks.

Fuel system:
Decide if fuel cell in back seat area or stock fuel tank in front or both? Add AC/Delco fuel filter and redundant fuel pump.

Interior:
Race seats, new 5 point belts, race radio, race gps.

Tires:
Your choice but run good tubes in all.

Motor:
SCORE allows low compression pump gas motor race built. SNORE at current allows race fuel motors and pump gas motors built to their rules. I suggest a strong pump gas motor either series.
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71 Westy
71 Class 11 Baja 1000 Car
Class 9 VW MORE Series Champ

[L5wolvesf]

FWIW, when I was looking into going with Class 11 me and my partner considered building a car from scratch and what it would cost was far more than buying an already built car and going through it. Getting a seasoned car with a history of finishing, if not winning, is the better choice. Our finish in our first race proved that.

Also, if you haven't built a race car before there will be a steep learning curve. I've built, and rebuilt, several now. In the beginning I made mistakes and had to correct them.

The sites ref'd here are good for Class 11, I picked up a lot from the Coalition site and pictures are work a million words.

Good luck to ya.
_________________
Amonster Motorsports

SNORE # 1196 sponsored by:
- www.356carburetorrescue.com/home.html
- Barnwerks Fabrication & Welding
- ArtSpeed Graphics

“Racing's important to men who do it well. When you're racing, it's life. Anything that happens before or after is just waiting.”
S. McQueen

[TDCTDI]

[3 Amigos Racing]

That carb is good on the SCORE low compression motor option. Good power on pump gas. I also ran a FAT low compression motor in Baja.
The SNORE racers have not approved that motor.
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71 Westy
71 Class 11 Baja 1000 Car
Class 9 VW MORE Series Champ

[arsalo]

[3 Amigos Racing]

Get you and 3 buddies to split the costs and driving (it will take like 30 hours) and go for it
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71 Westy
71 Class 11 Baja 1000 Car
Class 9 VW MORE Series Champ

[dustymojave]

I worked on a Class 11 racer at the SNORE Rage At The River in December. Gave a little pit help to the Sletten family working to help on the Empire Destructive team car.

The team had been having trouble blowing up new engines. Richard and Tim Sletten figured the problem out when they installed another engine Saturday afternoon. Fuel system had a 1/2" tube to the back from the fuel cell in front. Fuel filter near the tank. Electric fuel pump near the back used as an auxiliary, so the mechanical was drawing through the electric. another filter near the carb. Going around the filter near the tank and routing around the electric pump added a few hundred RPM to the engine. Pump was having trouble drawing through too much restriction ahead of it. Resulted in fuel starvation.

Then on top of that, the engine had no tin to seal the engine compartment around the bell housing or around the back inside the rear apron. So it was recirculating warm air. A Class 11 is NOT an open rail buggy. It NEEDS the engine compartment tin.

The car crossed the finish line in the lead on Sunday.

The Slettens are a good resource for help building a new Class 11 or buying one already built and prepping it to race. They've been successful competitors in the Class for decades. They are down in the Palm Springs area. They are also active on the Class 11 Coalition site referred to by a couple of people above.

If you build a new race car, it will have to be pre-race Tech inspected by Art Savedra, SCORE Chief of Tech. Not a bad idea, in fact a DAMNED GOOD idea to talk to him long before your 1st race if you buy a race-ready car from someone else.

I agree that buying a race-ready car is by far more practical and more economical for a NOOB. The one referred to in the ad in RDC looks pretty fair and up to date to me. But I've not seen it 1st hand.

One consideration is that you need to have LOTS of spare parts along when you go to a race. Just getting to a race is very expensive. It is really extra bad to break down and not have a spare that only costs $50 near home.

Common parts to take spares of (NO...you don't need to put them all in the race car for the start!):
- starter motor
- alternator
- carb
- front and rear trailing arms
- stub axles and spacers
- CVs and boots and bolts
- all bearings
- brake drums with studs
- brake backing plates with shoes and wheel cylinders pre-assembled (cylinder inlet sealed)
- tie rods
- spindles
- all trailing arms
- shocks with bolts - front and rear and tuned for the car
- fuel filters
- dust light (if it fails, you can be stopped at checkpoints until its fixed)
- air filters (put extra spares in a pit right after silt beds on the race course
- LOTS of wheels and tires
Sometimes it seems like the simplest and stupidest things will take you out of a race. It's good to be prepared for them. It's wise to race local races like MORE and SNORE in the US to gain experience before venturing across the border into another country.

Know that you will need a passport before you go and you need to get it long in advance these days too. It's not free or easy anymore.
_________________
Richard
Offroading VW based cars since 1965
Tech Inspection 1963 - 2012 SCCA/SCORE/HDRA/MORE/MDR +
Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
SoCalBajas Member
Kicked Cancer's A$$...1st and 2nd round...Fight ain't over yet.

[mr_bill]

THIS was built to be a SNORE "legal" Class 11...but....partner decieded mountain bikes were they way to recreate which left me (dis-abled VET, living on SS to finish car as a very competent "play-car".)....1776 w/Zenith32NDIX carb, front disc brakes & a 4:37 R&P in the trans...I now call it an 11"x" car..... & YES cost to build was..$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$, but FUN to builld

_________________
see ya' on the trail........

"Mr Bill"
Dos Perros Motorsports
Orange, CA
1972 Class 11x/Stock Bug
'60's era "vintage" Tunnell-Buggy

"...no one here....get's out ALIVE...."

Motor = electric
Engine = internal combustion

www.facebook.com/groups/DosPerrosMotorsports
www.alrchapter132.org
www.DAV.org

[L5wolvesf]

[3 Amigos Racing]

At Baja we carried over 100lbs of in car spares and tools. Rear drum, arms and spindles with BJ's, axle with cv's, distributor, filters, bearings. Dual batteries , shovels and a winch. Plus the misc stuff. LOL we still broke out.
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71 Westy
71 Class 11 Baja 1000 Car
Class 9 VW MORE Series Champ

[L5wolvesf]

[3 Amigos Racing]

Yep we saw some cars running like it was a Barstow race.. Minimums.. We used Baja Pits and two chase trucks.. When I had my DNF we were between a 90 mile stretch and a one way course section.. Chase would have had be on course 35 miles to get to us..we agonized over spares to carry.. Either way the rock that pierced the motor no spare or chase would have got us back in the game.. Next time lol..
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71 Westy
71 Class 11 Baja 1000 Car
Class 9 VW MORE Series Champ

[L5wolvesf]

[3 Amigos Racing]

3 Amigos Racing and a bunch of other Class 11 racers are racing the 2017 Mint 400 Off Road Race in Las Vegas this March. Good times! Our team is running the swing axle 11 of Ron Thomas! If your in Vegas the first week of March check it out.

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71 Westy
71 Class 11 Baja 1000 Car
Class 9 VW MORE Series Champ