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Bloku
Expert Noob
Joined: April 09, 2013
Posts: 559
Location: Tulsa/Jenks Oklahoma
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 Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 2:42 pm Post subject: "Vintage" 1776 Engine Question |
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Hello! I have a question about an engine that I plan on beginning to put together. I have a '71 ghia that it would go into. My inspiriration for this motor is not power (to an extent), but more or less a "vintage speed" build, or just a motor that performs like a late 356 motor. I would put this question in the vintage speed section, but this is for a DP 1600cc block...
By vintage speed and 356-like motor, I mean this...
Vintage speed 1776 meaning that I would like to use the same style of internals, carburetors, etc as they did if someone was making a mild driver/performance motor for my car in the 1970s (but most reading knew this)
By 356-like (specifically the super 90) I mean that I would like to build a 1776 that makes about the same power and rev's to the the same rpm's as a Porsche 356 super (90 horsepower) motor. I say this because this motor has been proven in 356's would see its fair share of use and would be, more of less, how the karmann ghia should have come out of the factory if it was not for VW keeping out of porsche's market. This motor should love cruising at 3500+ rpm/ 70mph to 80 mph.
I would like to have the stock heater boxes still in place if possible
I am sorry if this has been asked before. I have looked up: vintage 1776, 1970s performance engine, vintage 1600 build, etc.
Also, if this makes any difference, The transmission will have a 3.88 and a 4th gear of .93 on stock height tires.
Any help would be great. Thank you!
_________________
1971 Karmann Ghia
1975 Porsche 914
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1975 BMW 2002
1976 BMW 2002 (Bored and Stroked w/ 5-Speed)
1981 BMW E21
1986 Toyota 4Runner (Dead engine and trans)
1989 Toyota 4x4 PU
1994 BMW E36 (Daily) |
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Danwvw
Samba Member
Joined: July 31, 2012
Posts: 8892
Location: Oregon Coast
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| Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 2:47 pm Post subject: Re: "Vintage" 1776 Engine Question |
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The 356's had 74mm stroke cranks, a 1776cc VW engine is stock stroke at 69mm , Have you already opened the case up for the 90.5's do you have them yet?
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1960 Beetle And 1679cc DP W-100 & Dual Zeniths! |
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FreeBug
Samba Member
Joined: March 12, 2012
Posts: 4278
Location: deepest, darkest Switzerland
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| Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 2:58 pm Post subject: Re: "Vintage" 1776 Engine Question |
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I think what you're asking is can 276cc or so make up for the semi-hemi chamber and the stroke. I think with a good combo, yes.
I think you should be able to get 115-120 hp or so through stock-size VW heads (to keep the heater boxes), but the question is if it will pull like a S90? They pull well, very smooth.
If you've never driven a S 90, then no problem. You can make something which on paper is much better all-around. But if you have, you may find that particular magic hard to replicate exactly..
From memory , the S 90 had 39 mm intakes, 32 mm exhausts, 74 stroke x 83mm, 9.5:1 C/R.
I may be copletely offf-base, but I seemed to remember the Web 163 being close to S 90 timing??
I've often mused about doing something similar, but end up not. |
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[email protected]
Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2002
Posts: 12785
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
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| Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 3:31 pm Post subject: Re: "Vintage" 1776 Engine Question |
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so you mean
welded CW crank
shot peened OEM rods
welded 040 heads
etc?
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Danwvw
Samba Member
Joined: July 31, 2012
Posts: 8892
Location: Oregon Coast
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| Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 4:13 pm Post subject: Re: "Vintage" 1776 Engine Question |
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Is this planned motor supposed to look like the Porsche engine. With the bypass oil filter etc... the S-90 differed from the other 356 normal and S engines that ran the Zenith 32 NDIX carbs. It had the Solex P11-4 carbs However Weber conversion kits were often used on these 356 and 912 engines. Often you see the 912's with the Weber IDA's on them.
http://stoddard.com/356catalog.pdf (Page 22)
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1960 Beetle And 1679cc DP W-100 & Dual Zeniths! |
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earthquake
Samba Member
Joined: January 10, 2008
Posts: 3984
Location: SANDY VALLEY, NEVADA
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| Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:15 pm Post subject: Re: "Vintage" 1776 Engine Question |
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I want to build a vintage looking 1915 for my dune buggy with a set of 40mm DCN's [3 bolt] with Deano Dyno-soars manifolds and the center piece of the linkage, I am looking for a set of DDS valve covers and air cleaners to go with it.
any body know what purple paint to use on the manifolds and linkage parts?
Casey
_________________
74 CLASS 11 LOOK-A-LIKE
69 DUNE BUGGY
79 INTERNATIONAL SCOUT II
05 SCION XB SERIES RELEASE 2[#437]
95 Chevy C3500 dually
98 Ford E150
Link to Kelly J. Nolte 3/20/53 - 11/6/08
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Alstrup
Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007
Posts: 7216
Location: Videbaek Denmark
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| Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 2:00 am Post subject: Re: "Vintage" 1776 Engine Question |
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| Bloku wrote: |
Hello! I have a question about an engine that I plan on beginning to put together. I have a '71 ghia that it would go into. My inspiriration for this motor is not power (to an extent), but more or less a "vintage speed" build, or just a motor that performs like a late 356 motor. I would put this question in the vintage speed section, but this is for a DP 1600cc block...
By vintage speed and 356-like motor, I mean this...
Vintage speed 1776 meaning that I would like to use the same style of internals, carburetors, etc as they did if someone was making a mild driver/performance motor for my car in the 1970s (but most reading knew this)
By 356-like (specifically the super 90) I mean that I would like to build a 1776 that makes about the same power and rev's to the the same rpm's as a Porsche 356 super (90 horsepower) motor. I say this because this motor has been proven in 356's would see its fair share of use and would be, more of less, how the karmann ghia should have come out of the factory if it was not for VW keeping out of porsche's market. This motor should love cruising at 3500+ rpm/ 70mph to 80 mph.
I would like to have the stock heater boxes still in place if possible
I am sorry if this has been asked before. I have looked up: vintage 1776, 1970s performance engine, vintage 1600 build, etc.
Also, if this makes any difference, The transmission will have a 3.88 and a 4th gear of .93 on stock height tires.
Any help would be great. Thank you! |
Hello
The 616 1600 was good performance wise for its day. In hinsight it eas/is a little soft in the bottom and actually does not do much until after approx 3000 rpm. If I was to make a type 1 engine that was kind of a replica of the latest 616 SC engine I would "just" build a nice 1600, which can easily pull 95 hp (EU) and if done right it´ll actually be better down low compared to the SC. i have referred to this one before, but this 1600 is a good match to what youre asking:https://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/1145708.jpg If you want the exhaust to look like a 356 too you can go "cheap" and get a VS muffler, or you can go good and get the BAS Customsport http://www.ahnendorp.com/VW-Kaefer-Typ-1-Motorente...rmung.html (Expecting you to keep stock heaterboxes) The BAS will give you approx 10% more usable torque and a wider powerband over the VS. If you are ditching the heater boxes VS has a "Superflow" muffler that will do almost the same. With this type of muffler the above 1600 will loose about 10 hp on top, but the lower - and midrange will be about the same.
If you want to use a set of 32 mm NDIX carbs they can be modified to supply about 85 hp, or you can go all out and get 36 mm throttle housings from say a Pinzgauer and bump the vintage look performance to about 100 hp. You can of course also use a set of Solex 40 PII, but I would advise against that unless you or one of your friends REALLY knows his stuff regarding carbs, because especially the earlier ones (which are the easiest to find) are a real challenge to get to run right. In that case I would skimp and use a set of 40 mm IDF´s with a set of vintage filters like the ones from Flat4 or Riechert.
On a side note, the SC engine really wakes up wrt driveability if you increse the displacement to 1720, which is a popular mod to that engine. You gain maybe 5 hp, but the driving experience gets MUCH better.
Hope this helps.
T
Last edited by Alstrup on Wed Mar 22, 2017 2:06 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Floating VW
Samba Member
Joined: April 28, 2015
Posts: 1597
Location: The South Zone
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| Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:31 am Post subject: Re: "Vintage" 1776 Engine Question |
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| FreeBug wrote: |
I think you should be able to get 115-120 hp or so through stock-size VW heads (to keep the heater boxes), but the question is if it will pull like a S90? They pull well, very smooth.
If you've never driven a S 90, then no problem. You can make something which on paper is much better all-around. But if you have, you may find that particular magic hard to replicate exactly..
From memory , the S 90 had 39 mm intakes, 32 mm exhausts, 74 stroke x 83mm, 9.5:1 C/R. |
Well, that explains it. I built myself a little 76X83 mini-stroker, because I always felt that combination would make a simple, fun and very efficient little engine. From the first day I drove it, I couldn't get over how similar it felt to a Super 90 (yes, I have driven one and you're right, they do pull nice and are very smooth). I even got my inspiration for mounting the oil filter in the center of the engine from the 356, so there you go.
To the OP, if you're looking for something simple that pulls like a 356, my vote goes for a little mini-stroker. You won't find too many 83mm P&C's laying around (I had to go down to Brasil to get mine), but a common set of 85.5's paired up to a 74mm or 76mm crank would definitely put a smile on your face without breaking the bank. And it would be easy-peezy to assemble, too.
Good luck, man.
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Bloku
Expert Noob
Joined: April 09, 2013
Posts: 559
Location: Tulsa/Jenks Oklahoma
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| Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:44 pm Post subject: Re: "Vintage" 1776 Engine Question |
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Oh wow! Thank you guys for so many replies! I would love to respond to each one individually but I will try to do just one big overarching question again.
So what you guys are saying is, more or less, that a well built, balanced, and tuned 1776 would perform at the same smoothness, driveability and reliability as some of these 356's!? If so, that sounds awesome  I am excited!
Lastly, does anyone have any links to some random tech articles of modified VW's in the 70s, from the 70s? I would just go to some Hot VWs Magazines, but I have no access. Are there any sites that might have some of these articles?
I am not neccicarily looking to make it 100% period, but just something that woulden't be using a cam position sensor or fuel injection (things along that line). An example would be full flow oil filter or weber 40idfs with a modern linkage and manifolds.
Thanks again you guys! TheSamba is great 
_________________
1971 Karmann Ghia
1975 Porsche 914
-----
1975 BMW 2002
1976 BMW 2002 (Bored and Stroked w/ 5-Speed)
1981 BMW E21
1986 Toyota 4Runner (Dead engine and trans)
1989 Toyota 4x4 PU
1994 BMW E36 (Daily) |
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dsrtfox
Samba Member
Joined: August 25, 2009
Posts: 443
Location: Phoenix
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| Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:37 pm Post subject: Re: "Vintage" 1776 Engine Question |
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| Just get Bill Fishers book (How to Hotrod VW's). He wrote it in the 70's. EBay or Amazon... |
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sactojesse
Samba Member
Joined: November 21, 2006
Posts: 2655
Location: Sacramento, California, USA
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| Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 9:47 am Post subject: Re: "Vintage" 1776 Engine Question |
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| dsrtfox wrote: |
| Just get Bill Fishers book (How to Hotrod VW's). He wrote it in the 70's. EBay or Amazon... |
Agreed. You'll learn all about Weber 40 DCNs, Holley Bug Sprays, Zenith 32 NDIXs, Solex 40P11s, and SPG roller cranks. 
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1966 Karmann-Ghia convertible |
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TSPayne
Samba Member
Joined: April 23, 2006
Posts: 73
Location: Spokane, WA
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| Posted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 11:12 am Post subject: Re: "Vintage" 1776 Engine Question |
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| I would recommend something like this. AS41 case with 8mm head studs. CW 69mm crank (Forged). Stock rods, 8 doweled flywheel, 90.5 P&C, stock heads, quality 3 angle valve job, single high rev springs, bolt together rocker shafts, stronger than stock push rods, Engle 100 cam or similar, standard street header if you are running heater boxes, doghouse oil cooler, stock diaphragm clutch, weber 40 idf's, quality linkage. You can then dress up the motor to look vintage, with the use of 010 distributor, braded plug wires, vintage mesh air cleaners, etc. This is an excellent combo and it will last. It will also deliver the HP and performance you are looking for. It will sound like a Porsche 356/912 also! |
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