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KTPhil 
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 34003
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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 Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 11:13 am Post subject: Re: Not the best start to the day... |
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| Quote: |
| his insurance has just agreed to cover. The agent asked if I had a collector car policy, because he said he could only cover fair market value and my policy would need to cover the rest |
This is total bullshit.
The other driver needs to make you whole. If he didn't buy enough insurance to cover damage he causes, he is still personally liable for the damage. HIS insurance choices do not limit YOUR right to recover. He buys insurance to help pay for damage he causes, NOT to limit his liability. Lots of dishonest insurance agents will try to tell you otherwise.
You may have to take the other owner to small claims court for any shortfall his insurance doesn't cover -- easy in Cali with a $75 fee and up to $7500 claim.
The key will be it's value and the cost of repair. This has nothing to do with either of your insurance values. Go to the Samba classifieds and find a similar, pristine, rust-free car as a comparison. Get a few if possible. Get appraisals from local VW shops (retail, not wholesale) and explain what the estimate is for so they don't lowball you like they are making an offer to you.
Last edited by KTPhil on Fri Mar 31, 2017 12:42 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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c21darrel
Samba Member
Joined: January 22, 2009
Posts: 8211
Location: San Dimas
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KTPhil
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 34003
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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| Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 12:44 pm Post subject: Re: Not the best start to the day... |
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Agreed, a recent appraisal does wonders and it sounds like this case will end well (fingers crossed).
I just wanted other readers of the thread to always question the self-serving claims of the offender's insurance company, who is paid to minimize their expense, and not to make you whole or to be fair. They will also try to snow you, if it is totaled, into giving them the car once they pay out. You have NO such obligation! |
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kiwighia68
Samba Member
Joined: October 20, 2013
Posts: 2874
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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| Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 1:11 pm Post subject: Re: Not the best start to the day... |
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Just a couple of points:
1. The other driver is responsible for your claim, not his insurer, but you'll find it easier to deal with an insurer. They deal with risk, and will take into account the risk of being taken to court.
2. Your loss is the difference between the pre- and post collision values of your car. This is usually (but not always) the reasonable cost of repair necessary to restore the car to its pre-collision condition. Sometimes the fact of the collision negatively affects the post-repair value. (That's why cars are often advertised as "never been in a collision".) Keep this in mind when arguing with the insurance agent. The cost of the repair is the low limit of your claim.
3. The very first book to refer to insurance by name (about 1420, if I remember) opined that insurers were quick to receive premiums but very tardy when it came to paying claims, and in order to avoid paying, were known to take many petty points. So be prepared.
4. On the positive side - as others have pointed out: (a) Good on you for having the car valued before the collision. That will be persuasive evidence of pre-collision value. (b) Evidence of comparable sales of similar cars in similar condition at or near the date of the collision will strengthen your proof of that value.
_________________
Festina lente - hasten slowly
1968 Ghia named Emiko
Resto completed Dec 2015 |
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Mellow Yellow 74
Samba Member
Joined: October 14, 2014
Posts: 1615
Location: Sydney, Australia
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| Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:12 pm Post subject: Re: Not the best start to the day... |
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| akear wrote: |
| I was hit so I'm making the claim through the other driver's insurance, not mine. |
Why are you doing this? Assuming you have full insurance and not just third party liability and are adequately insured you should claim through your insurer and let them worry about recovery. As you were not the at-fault driver you should not pay any deductible and should not be penalised in any way with respect to no claim bonus or premium increase at renewal. By not claiming on your insurance you are assuming all of the hassle and risk associated with trying to recover from the at fault driver.
Your insurance should fix the car as soon as possible irrespective or recovery from others, then they will try and recover from the insurer or directly with the driver if the insurance doesn't cover it. If they need to sue someone to recover that is their problem not yours and even if they are unsuccessful in recovering from the other party it is still their problem not yours.
You need to claim against your insurance ASAP because anything you agree to without your insurers approval to could affect your claim. You just need to tell them the other drivers details and his insurance details and that is all you should need to do. Even if you are not sure whether you are adequately insured, you should still claim under your policy then if necessary try and recover from the other party if your insurance doesn't cover the full costs.
It doesn't matter whether the other driver insured his car for agreed value or market value, it makes no difference to the cover under the third party liability. Whether you insure your car for agreed value or market value does matter and you insurer will indemnify you based on this and will recover from the other insurer based on this.
If you are insured for market value and the insurer believes the market value is less than the repair costs, it will be up to you to convince your insurer of what the market value is, but the valuation you have will help this.
_________________
1962 Karmann Ghia
1974 Deluxe Microbus
1985 Caravelle (Vanagon) |
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akear
Samba Member
Joined: August 18, 2013
Posts: 359
Location: Los Angeles
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| Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 11:29 am Post subject: Re: Not the best start to the day... |
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Thanks for all the advice, but I think I'm on the right path claiming through the at-fault driver's insurance. Do folks remember this thread?
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=639746&highlight=
That member made her claim through her own insurance even through the other driver was at fault, and it was not a good experience for her. At the time many people here said it was a mistake for her to do that and she should have made the claim through the other driver's insurance. (I hope that things worked out well for her in the end, I don't think we know.)
In my case, as I already mentioned, the other driver's insurance has agreed to cover me and even put me into a rental car right away. This is State Farm, which my body guy says is one of the best for paying to fix things correctly and with good parts. But I don't have a damage estimate yet or a claim offer so I will reserve judgment until then.
Nonetheless, you guys got me worried so I called my insurance to see if I am doing the right thing. They basically said "why are you calling us?" and said there is no need to involve them until if and when I might have difficulty with the other insurance company.
Edit: Adding this link to "what to do after an accident that's not your fault"
http://www.insure.com/car-insurance/third-party-accident.html
Last edited by akear on Tue Apr 04, 2017 4:09 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Mellow Yellow 74
Samba Member
Joined: October 14, 2014
Posts: 1615
Location: Sydney, Australia
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| Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 2:44 pm Post subject: Re: Not the best start to the day... |
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It must be different in the US - seems strange that you pay for insurance cover but are left to sort it out yourself dealing with someone else's insurance company who has zero realtionship with you. Anyway I hope it works out because your KG is really nice.
_________________
1962 Karmann Ghia
1974 Deluxe Microbus
1985 Caravelle (Vanagon) |
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kiwighia68
Samba Member
Joined: October 20, 2013
Posts: 2874
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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| Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 3:38 pm Post subject: Re: Not the best start to the day... |
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| Mellow Yellow 74 wrote: |
| It must be different in the US - seems strange that you pay for insurance cover but are left to sort it out yourself dealing with someone else's insurance company who has zero realtionship with you. Anyway I hope it works out because your KG is really nice. |
US insurance law and practice is no different in its important principles to those applying in, for example, the UK, Australia and elsewhere. What's at stake here, is the deductible, the amount your own insurer deducts from your claim for having administered it and for pursuing the wrongdoer.
The only way to avoid the deductible is to deal directly with the wrongdoer. In this case, the wrongdoer's insurer stepped in to indemnify their insured - by handling the claim on his behalf. If Akear had lodged a claim with his own insurer, they would have taken up the claim with the wrongdoer's insurer directly, and Akear's recovery would be reduced by the amount of the deductible.
I think that's why he's handling the matter himself.
_________________
Festina lente - hasten slowly
1968 Ghia named Emiko
Resto completed Dec 2015 |
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c21darrel
Samba Member
Joined: January 22, 2009
Posts: 8211
Location: San Dimas
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kiwighia68
Samba Member
Joined: October 20, 2013
Posts: 2874
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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| Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 6:25 pm Post subject: Re: Not the best start to the day... |
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| c21darrel wrote: |
| Quote: |
| but are left to sort it out yourself dealing with someone else's insurance company who has zero realtionship with you. |
That's pretty funny. :cry:
There is no company that cares more about the client, customer or payer of premiums than their own bottom line. There are only "relationships" in the insurance business until you make a claim. Then its your own company Vs. You. |
It's a fact that since the dawn of insurance as we know it (1340 AD or thereabouts), there has been a more or less even contest between insurers and insured in an unrelenting quest to cheat one another. There are good insurers and bad insurers. A good insurer pays back about 60% of premiums in claims. 20% goes to admin and the rest is, or may be, profit for shareholders, depending on whether they have to face Katrina-like claims in a given year.
My last claim went like this: Car written off on a Wednesday, claim submitted Friday, claim acknowledged Monday, claim minus deductible paid into my account on Tuesday. It was an agreed value policy.
_________________
Festina lente - hasten slowly
1968 Ghia named Emiko
Resto completed Dec 2015 |
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Mellow Yellow 74
Samba Member
Joined: October 14, 2014
Posts: 1615
Location: Sydney, Australia
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| Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 8:41 pm Post subject: Re: Not the best start to the day... |
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| kiwighia68 wrote: |
| The only way to avoid the deductible is to deal directly with the wrongdoer. In this case, the wrongdoer's insurer stepped in to indemnify their insured - by handling the claim on his behalf. If Akear had lodged a claim with his own insurer, they would have taken up the claim with the wrongdoer's insurer directly, and Akear's recovery would be reduced by the amount of the deductible. |
I recently had a claim (in a non VW car) which was not my fault and all I had to do was advise the details of the other driver and his insurer to my insurer then take the car to the repairer (it was still drivable) and pick it up when it was repaired. I did not pay any deductible (called excess in Australia) or have any contact with the other driver or his insurer and my insurer advised there will be no additional premium payable at renewal and I will retain my no claim bonus because it wasn't my fault.
I do have a contractual relationship my insurer as a customer and if I have an issue with them I can raise a dispute as a customer and then if I don't get an appropriate response can then raise it with the insurance regulator. Not sure how I would go doing this with someone else's insurer if they didn't pay a claim, but as I am not their customer I don't think they would be obliged to do anything.
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1962 Karmann Ghia
1974 Deluxe Microbus
1985 Caravelle (Vanagon) |
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tommu
Samba Member
Joined: November 15, 2011
Posts: 618
Location: L.A.
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| Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 11:01 pm Post subject: Re: Not the best start to the day... |
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| kiwighia68 wrote: |
| US insurance law and practice is no different in its important principles to those applying in, for example, the UK, Australia and elsewhere. |
Coming from the UK I can say the experience of getting cover, having cover and claiming are very different indeed.
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akear
Samba Member
Joined: August 18, 2013
Posts: 359
Location: Los Angeles
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| Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 2:24 pm Post subject: Re: Not the best start to the day... |
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Update...
Body shop and insurance adjuster agreed to the repair cost. Ready? $13k.
Now with bean counters to decide whether to fix or total. I should know early next week and I'm going to try not to think about it until then. |
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KGCoupe
Samba Member
Joined: July 01, 2005
Posts: 3580
Location: Putting the "ill" and "annoy" in Illinois
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| Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 2:33 pm Post subject: Re: Not the best start to the day... |
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 Wow!
$13k seems surprisingly high.
When I go back and look at the photos you posted of the accident damage, I'm having trouble understanding how it could cost that much unless the labor rate is unusually high or they are planning on using only NOS parts for the repair.
Obviously I am no expert, though, and presumably they are. 
Good luck with everything.
I sure hope you can get your Karmann Ghia back to it's former glory - it sure was a great looking car prior to the accident. |
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akear
Samba Member
Joined: August 18, 2013
Posts: 359
Location: Los Angeles
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| Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 2:43 pm Post subject: Re: Not the best start to the day... |
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| Since there are no body panel seams on our cars, to do the repair "right", they agreed to a full repaint, which means everything comes off and windows come out, and they do all of that work all over again. Also factoring in a donor front corner clip to be patched in. I'm sure it could be done more cheaply but it would not put me back to where I was. |
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sputnick60
Samba Moderator
Joined: July 22, 2007
Posts: 3916
Location: In Molinya Orbit
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kiwighia68
Samba Member
Joined: October 20, 2013
Posts: 2874
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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| Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 1:03 pm Post subject: Re: Not the best start to the day... |
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| sputnick60 wrote: |
x2. the little scratches on mine were $7k worth of repair. And while it was laid up people saw it and made offers of $80k for it just in case it was for sale. These cars in good shape are worth more than we realise.
Nicholas |
I'm with Nicholas on this. The cost of the repair doesn't appear to be anywhere near the value of the car (as before the collision or after the repair has been completed).
The car can only be "written off" if the cost of the repair exceeds its market (or agreed) value as it was before the damage. (The insurer is obliged to pay the LESSER of the cost of repair and the pre-collision value of the car.)
_________________
Festina lente - hasten slowly
1968 Ghia named Emiko
Resto completed Dec 2015 |
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akear
Samba Member
Joined: August 18, 2013
Posts: 359
Location: Los Angeles
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| Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 7:34 am Post subject: Re: Not the best start to the day... |
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| kiwighia68 wrote: |
| The car can only be "written off" if the cost of the repair exceeds its market (or agreed) value as it was before the damage. (The insurer is obliged to pay the LESSER of the cost of repair and the pre-collision value of the car.) |
Not quite right. In CA, the car is a total loss if the repair costs exceeds the actual value before the accident LESS the salvage value of the car after the accident. So in my example, say the actual value is $17k and salvage value is $5k, then my car could be declared "totaled" ($13k repair > $17k - $5k.) I sure hope not, but will find out soon. |
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kiwighia68
Samba Member
Joined: October 20, 2013
Posts: 2874
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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| Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 10:53 am Post subject: Re: Not the best start to the day... |
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| akear wrote: |
| kiwighia68 wrote: |
| The car can only be "written off" if the cost of the repair exceeds its market (or agreed) value as it was before the damage. (The insurer is obliged to pay the LESSER of the cost of repair and the pre-collision value of the car.) |
Not quite right. In CA, the car is a total loss if the repair costs exceeds the actual value before the accident LESS the salvage value of the car after the accident. So in my example, say the actual value is $17k and salvage value is $5k, then my car could be declared "totaled" ($13k repair > $17k - $5k.) I sure hope not, but will find out soon. |
Yes, you're right about the salvage value being taken into account. I stand corrected.
_________________
Festina lente - hasten slowly
1968 Ghia named Emiko
Resto completed Dec 2015 |
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akear
Samba Member
Joined: August 18, 2013
Posts: 359
Location: Los Angeles
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| Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 6:29 pm Post subject: Re: Not the best start to the day... |
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| Update... He's gonna live!! ("Sonny" the Ghia, that is.) It's been a wild ride with the insurance company. Last Saturday I received a letter saying the car has been declared a total loss based on a pre-collission value of $7075. After a lot of back and forth, turns out that the yahoo that came up with that ridiculous value did not have my appraisal report. With the appraisal report now in hand, the insurance company has agreed to use the mid-point of the appraised value, which puts me right in the middle area in their formula of fix versus total. (BTW, that mid-point value is more than double their initial value estimate). They just need to confirm with my body shop that the estimate is firm and then -- finally -- the shop can start repairs and get Sonny back on the road. The big takeaway for me and lesson I hope for all is the value of having a good appraisal on hand. Without that I would be arguing from their $7k value and no doubt needing a lawyer. I have another old car insured with Hagerty; even though I should be well protected with Hagerty I'm going to get an appraisal for that as well just in case. |
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