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J1
Samba Member
Joined: February 10, 2014
Posts: 698
Location: SoCal
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 Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 3:35 pm Post subject: Master cylinder leak - Eight lives left |
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The recent thread about brake light switch issues made me check my brake fluid. Thank you to the Samba community for my reminders! I admit it's been a while and apparently my leg is not trained and sensitive enough to notice braking issues.
Apparently I was running on brake fluid fumes. Prayers of gratitude going out now
So I checked the master cylinder and I guess there's a leak. Maybe from that rearmost port where the wetness seems to be starting from?
Or the pushrod? It's wet a little bit around there but not a lot .
And then I see this. I know there is a gap right along that seam so I assume the brake fluid traveled through there
Passenger side. I don't quite get how the fluid spreads here though after getting here. I guess there are some openings along the seams?
Anyway my plan is to replace the master cylinder. My metal and rubber lines appear to be OK. Based on these photos, are there other things I should be considering?
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1971 Ghia coupe. Assume I know nothing and you'll be pretty darn close to the truth. |
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Loren
Samba Member
Joined: January 10, 2004
Posts: 1700
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| Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 6:49 pm Post subject: Re: Master cylinder leak - Eight lives left |
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| Do you know how old the rubber lines are? Rubber lines can degrade from the inside, so you can't always tell if they are good or not from an outside inspection. If you don't know how old they are I would replace them, cheap insurance. |
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bhartwell59
Samba Member
Joined: December 28, 2014
Posts: 791
Location: dallas, tx
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| Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:47 pm Post subject: Re: Master cylinder leak - Eight lives left |
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Yep... you dodged a bullet.
Were there no wet spots beneath your parked car?
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'74 Zambezi green Ghia vert, autostick, 101k
'87 Jeep Wrangler, 4.2, 330k |
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J1
Samba Member
Joined: February 10, 2014
Posts: 698
Location: SoCal
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| Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:14 am Post subject: Re: Master cylinder leak - Eight lives left |
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| Loren wrote: |
| Do you know how old the rubber lines are? |
| bhartwell59 wrote: |
| Were there no wet spots beneath your parked car? |
Interestingly no. I'm wondering if it somehow traveled to the rear and got mixed in with my leaking oil! Or maybe there was enough room to spread and not leak down.
Question: I haven't looked at my wheel cylinders. What do I need to look for to make sure they are OK? Or is there a certain protocol for replacing wheel cylinders when replacing the master cylinder?
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1971 Ghia coupe. Assume I know nothing and you'll be pretty darn close to the truth. |
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c21darrel
Samba Member
Joined: January 22, 2009
Posts: 8211
Location: San Dimas
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sjbartnik
Samba Member
Joined: September 01, 2011
Posts: 5994
Location: Brooklyn
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| Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:57 am Post subject: Re: Master cylinder leak - Eight lives left |
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| J1 wrote: |
Question: I haven't looked at my wheel cylinders. What do I need to look for to make sure they are OK? Or is there a certain protocol for replacing wheel cylinders when replacing the master cylinder? |
I would replace those rubber hoses as they are more than 10 years old. Might as well do it at the same time as the master so you only have to bleed the system once.
Inspecting wheel cylinders requires pulling the drums. You only really need to replace or rebuild them if they are leaking. If they are leaking badly there will be obvious trail of brake fluid on the backing plate below the wheel cylinder, but to check for sure you should peel back the outer rubber seal on each end (which is not a fluid seal, just a dust seal) and check for wetness/brake fluid underneath. If you find brake fluid underneath the dust seals, you need to replace the wheel cylinder as it means brake fluid is getting past the piston seals inside the cylinder.
Do NOT depress the brake pedal with the drums removed.
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1965 Volkswagen 1500 Variant S
2000 Kawasaki W650 |
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rockerarm
Samba Member
Joined: December 16, 2009
Posts: 3552
Location: Los Angeles
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| Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 8:05 am Post subject: Re: Master cylinder leak - Eight lives left |
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Hi.
Consider using the better switches as you have read up on. They are about $20 each. I prefer to R&R the gas tank for a job such as this, instead of reaching in thru the wheel well. The blue (special) brake hoses needed are longer than what is needed for a bug, so anticipate that. Consider soaking the metal line connections at the master cyl, with a penetrant, to avoid any issues with them.
Hope this helps, Bill. |
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sirzo
Samba Member
Joined: December 12, 2007
Posts: 170
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 8:49 am Post subject: Re: Master cylinder leak - Eight lives left |
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With the master cylinder, here in Australia the German original RHD master cylinders are hard to get and/or expensive, new. They are different from the LHD ones as the lines go in from the opposite end.
A friend of mine got his rebuilt locally with a stainless sleeve. This cost about $200 AUD.
I just replaced my MC on my Beetle with a good second hand German unit and will get the old one rebuilt, as a spare.
Just a thought, if it's a cost effective option for the LHD M/Cylinders. |
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J1
Samba Member
Joined: February 10, 2014
Posts: 698
Location: SoCal
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| Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 3:28 pm Post subject: Re: Master cylinder leak - Eight lives left |
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Thanks for the tips. I'm slowly making progress as time allows.
Took out the fuel tank since I've been wanting to clean out the inside. Wow it's nasty in there! Have started removing the MC and have had no issues with the connections.
Waiting for a "good quality" MC from CIP1 and will likely pick up new rubber hoses for the corners.
Regarding the blue hoses, I'm thinking my brake system was modified because I have metal hoses going from the reservoir to the MC. I only have short 2 inch sections of blue hoses that connect the different sections of metal hose.
_________________
1971 Ghia coupe. Assume I know nothing and you'll be pretty darn close to the truth. |
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sirzo
Samba Member
Joined: December 12, 2007
Posts: 170
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 5:03 pm Post subject: Re: Master cylinder leak - Eight lives left |
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| Quote: |
Regarding the blue hoses, I'm thinking my brake system was modified because I have metal hoses going from the reservoir to the MC. I only have short 2 inch sections of blue hoses that connect the different sections of metal hose.
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I had the same set up in the two 1969 & 1970 Ghias I brought over from US. Both had the blue cloth braid hoses connecting the metal brake lines, same as your first photo. So it looks like these may be standard? |
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rockerarm
Samba Member
Joined: December 16, 2009
Posts: 3552
Location: Los Angeles
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| Posted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 5:30 pm Post subject: Re: Master cylinder leak - Eight lives left |
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Hi. Agreed. I have a '74 ghia in my driveway and it has a pair of 6"-8" lengths of blue hose from the reservoir to the two dedicated formed metal lines. And there are two 3"-4" lengths of blue hose from those metal lines to the plastic inlets atop the master cyl.
Hope this helps, Bill. |
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J1
Samba Member
Joined: February 10, 2014
Posts: 698
Location: SoCal
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| Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 5:22 pm Post subject: Re: Master cylinder leak - Eight lives left |
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I think I am going to hate the responses to this but do I have to take the body off the pan to clean out my leaking brake fluid?
I took the master cylinder off and when I look in that hole where the pushrod is there is a pool of brake fluid.
I noticed two pan bolts that are just outside of the master cylinder location and thought that might help release some of the brake fluid.
And here are the bolts that came out of there. One of the washers snapped in my hand. I assume the brown gunk is a mixture of rust and brake fluid.
I don't see how I could easily drain and more importantly clean out the brake fluid in there... other than to pull the body off. Please tell me I'm wrong! If so let me submit this as one of the really poor design decisions on these cars!
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1971 Ghia coupe. Assume I know nothing and you'll be pretty darn close to the truth. |
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60ragtop
Bonneville Belt Bitch
Joined: March 13, 2006
Posts: 7800
Location: Big Wonderful WYO 82401
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| Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 5:33 pm Post subject: Re: Master cylinder leak - Eight lives left |
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just flush it out with water, don't make mountain out of a molehill 
make sure you don't loose the spacers for the MC bolts
_________________
Rick
Certified Mechanic by the State of Michigan in 1977
ASA certified in 1987
Certified Hunter Wheel Alignment Master Technician 1986
| tasb wrote: |
I've restored a large number too, but I don't toot my horn quite as loud.
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| sb001 wrote: |
| maybe he just snapped cause his car sucked |
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rockerarm
Samba Member
Joined: December 16, 2009
Posts: 3552
Location: Los Angeles
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| Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 7:14 pm Post subject: Re: Master cylinder leak - Eight lives left |
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Hi. As Rick said to just flush with water. I recall someone telling me that TSP would neutralize the brake fluid from doing any additional paint damage within the tunnel. You should see some indication of the brake fluid leak at the rear of the pan where there is a drain hole.
Hope this helps, Bill. |
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J1
Samba Member
Joined: February 10, 2014
Posts: 698
Location: SoCal
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| Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 7:43 pm Post subject: Re: Master cylinder leak - Eight lives left |
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Ok will think about flushing but I'm puzzled how the pan pieces are connected.
I think I'm pretty sure I don't need to worry about the fluid getting into the tunnel because this photo from the gallery seems to indicate there isn't any opening between the tunnel and where the fluid is pooled up.
But it also shows there is no passage from the driver side to the passenger side... yet from under the car the fluid seems to be in both sides. So if they are unconnected sections, I'd have to flush separately and now it seems like access to the passenger side may be limited. Am I thinking about this right?
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1971 Ghia coupe. Assume I know nothing and you'll be pretty darn close to the truth. |
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60ragtop
Bonneville Belt Bitch
Joined: March 13, 2006
Posts: 7800
Location: Big Wonderful WYO 82401
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| Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 6:24 am Post subject: Re: Master cylinder leak - Eight lives left |
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yes you probably will have brake fluid in the tunnel.
you are over analyzing this as quoted in my sig line.
Flush it out with water and let dry. You can get to the tunnel by the access cover in between the front beam.
_________________
Rick
Certified Mechanic by the State of Michigan in 1977
ASA certified in 1987
Certified Hunter Wheel Alignment Master Technician 1986
| tasb wrote: |
I've restored a large number too, but I don't toot my horn quite as loud.
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| sb001 wrote: |
| maybe he just snapped cause his car sucked |
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c21darrel
Samba Member
Joined: January 22, 2009
Posts: 8211
Location: San Dimas
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bhartwell59
Samba Member
Joined: December 28, 2014
Posts: 791
Location: dallas, tx
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| Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 11:11 am Post subject: Re: Master cylinder leak - Eight lives left |
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Personally, I rather have my brake res in the front trunk
_________________
'74 Zambezi green Ghia vert, autostick, 101k
'87 Jeep Wrangler, 4.2, 330k |
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rockerarm
Samba Member
Joined: December 16, 2009
Posts: 3552
Location: Los Angeles
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| Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 11:26 am Post subject: Re: Master cylinder leak - Eight lives left |
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| bhartwell59 wrote: |
| Personally, I rather have my brake res in the front trunk |
Me also. I'd rather not complicate basic inspections/maintenance procedures.
I suppose if that part had a float bobber like many new cars have that would light up a simple warning lamp, it might be more accepted. |
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J1
Samba Member
Joined: February 10, 2014
Posts: 698
Location: SoCal
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| Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 11:36 am Post subject: Re: Master cylinder leak - Eight lives left |
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Ok thanks for the nudge. I'm definitely an over analyst but I also ask these questions for the sake of others who may encounter this. Just trying to help others and myself aim before shooting 
And it does feel "suboptimal" to introduce water into hidden crevices and seams (and the tunnel too?!) that may already be crusty, but I'm gonna trust you!
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1971 Ghia coupe. Assume I know nothing and you'll be pretty darn close to the truth. |
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