| Author |
Message |
WestyBob
Samba Member
Joined: June 11, 2004
Posts: 2346
Location: Portland, Oregon
|
 Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 10:08 am Post subject: Re: Choosing 2.2 versus 2.5 Subaru for swap? |
 |
|
| 888 wrote: |
| You guys that have done the swap, did you do your own harness or buy one already done? |
I got my harnesses from the same engines they came with.
I paid SmallCar to 'do' my harnesses (2.5L).
Last time I looked they sell a fold-out schematic for those wanting to do themselves.
Caution: I found it was worth having them do it to make sure that 'one' wire wasn't messed up or accidentally cut out. OTOH, if you feel up to it then give it a try. I've known a few who have successfully done themselves. Just have to concentrate and pay close attention to the schematic without distraction nor long 'down time' in between -- sit down and do it all as much as possible at one time so you can keep it all straight. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Jake de Villiers
Samba Member
Joined: October 24, 2007
Posts: 5911
Location: Tsawwassen, BC
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:18 pm Post subject: Re: Choosing 2.2 versus 2.5 Subaru for swap? |
|
|
| 888 wrote: |
You guys that have done the swap, did you do your own harness or buy one already done?
If you did it yourself, where did you find the instructions/schematics?
If you bought it already made, where did you buy it?
I started the process of pulling the engine yesterday, disconnected and tagged the wiring harness. Removed the air filter assembly and coolant tank. Disconnected the coolant hoses and the fuel lines.
I started cleaning the mold and dirt off the outside with a wet sponge and the paint is better than I thought. Rust is minimal so far. It's questionable that I'll end up with a finished product worth what I have in it but I've written a check on every VW I've owned anyway when it came time to sell.
I probably should take some more photos and start a separate thread. I did that when I built my barn and it's a lot of fun looking back at it now.
It will be very slow going using only my left hand, right arm is pretty much off limits due to shoulder surgery at the end of January. It's going to be months before I get full use back. They went in to clean out 3/8" of bone spurs that were starting to freeze up the joint and found I had torn halfway through the rotator cuff and biceps tendon. Got some drywall anchor looking things in my shoulder bone holding it all together.
So it will be slow but I'm in no hurry, it's just sitting in the barn keeping the beer company. |
I had my harness done by the best, Tom Shiels. Well worth it to me and it let me concentrate on the physical swap which was pretty eassy.
Fired right up first time. 
_________________
'84 Vanagon GL 1.9 WBX
'86 Westy Weekender Poptop/2.5 Subaru/5 Speed Posi/Audi Front Brakes/16 x 7 Mercedes Wheels - answers to 'Dixie'
@jakedevilliersmusic1
http://sites.google.com/site/subyjake/mydixiedarlin%27
www.crescentbeachguitar.com
www.thebassspa.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
888
Samba Member
Joined: May 11, 2006
Posts: 118
Location: SW Ohio
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 5:00 pm Post subject: Re: Choosing 2.2 versus 2.5 Subaru for swap? |
|
|
| Jake de Villiers wrote: |
I had my harness done by the best, Tom Shiels. Well worth it to me and it let me concentrate on the physical swap which was pretty eassy.
Fired right up first time. |
Thanks for the replies.
Tom is the person I was conversing with back in 2015 when I was last looking at doing this. His site is pretty amazing. I sent him an email a few days ago and haven't heard back. I'll try again. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
RichBenn
Samba Member
Joined: November 16, 2005
Posts: 703
Location: Lake Tahoe, NV
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 5:09 pm Post subject: Re: Choosing 2.2 versus 2.5 Subaru for swap? |
|
|
Did my own harness but would go with Tom or Smallcar to do harness, if I had it to do over.
And I'm an electronics engineer, like Tom.
_________________
Rich |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Jake de Villiers
Samba Member
Joined: October 24, 2007
Posts: 5911
Location: Tsawwassen, BC
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 7:01 pm Post subject: Re: Choosing 2.2 versus 2.5 Subaru for swap? |
|
|
| RichBenn wrote: |
Did my own harness but would go with Tom or Smallcar to do harness, if I had it to do over.
And I'm an electronics engineer, like Tom. |
I spoke with a mechanical engineer in Vancouver before I did my swap. He was a very bright guy and he figured he had over 60 hours into the harness. Way cheaper for me to get Tom to do it!! And its been tested, there's a wiring diagram and clear simple instructions.
A veritable bargain. 
_________________
'84 Vanagon GL 1.9 WBX
'86 Westy Weekender Poptop/2.5 Subaru/5 Speed Posi/Audi Front Brakes/16 x 7 Mercedes Wheels - answers to 'Dixie'
@jakedevilliersmusic1
http://sites.google.com/site/subyjake/mydixiedarlin%27
www.crescentbeachguitar.com
www.thebassspa.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
888
Samba Member
Joined: May 11, 2006
Posts: 118
Location: SW Ohio
|
| Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 4:32 am Post subject: Re: Choosing 2.2 versus 2.5 Subaru for swap? |
|
|
Okay, I'm convinced to let someone like Tom do the harness. I need to find a donor car next.
This popped up on CL.
https://dayton.craigslist.org/pts/6030241741.html
For $950 I get the whole car and can hear it run. Looks like good bits to sell off and get some of the money back to rebuild the engine. Send him a message, guess we'll see how it goes. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
WestyBob
Samba Member
Joined: June 11, 2004
Posts: 2346
Location: Portland, Oregon
|
| Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 6:12 am Post subject: Re: Choosing 2.2 versus 2.5 Subaru for swap? |
|
|
| 888 wrote: |
| For $950 I get the whole car and can hear it run. |
At 200+k miles ..... proceed with caution. There's no free lunch when it comes to engines. Most will pay between $2k to $3k for a good low mileage one -- anywhere in the 25k to 60k miles range. If you think this high mileage one will do the job, recommend you prep well including new timing belt prior to install.
The bottom line with any conversion of any type is to make sure you have no weak links in the entire A to Z process or you will have problems. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
888
Samba Member
Joined: May 11, 2006
Posts: 118
Location: SW Ohio
|
| Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 7:14 am Post subject: Re: Choosing 2.2 versus 2.5 Subaru for swap? |
|
|
| WestyBob wrote: |
| 888 wrote: |
| For $950 I get the whole car and can hear it run. |
At 200+k miles ..... proceed with caution. There's no free lunch when it comes to engines. Most will pay between $2k to $3k for a good low mileage one -- anywhere in the 25k to 60k miles range. If you think this high mileage one will do the job, recommend you prep well including new timing belt prior to install.
The bottom line with any conversion of any type is to make sure you have no weak links in the entire A to Z process or you will have problems. |
Understood and thanks for the reply.
Unlike a lot of wrecked stuff that pops up, I can hear this one run so I can check for cold start knock, smoke etc. I completely expect to do work to the engine before I install it, including TB service/seals/HG's etc. That's what I meant when I mentioned selling off the rest of the car in pieces to raise money for the engine.
I asked the current owner for service history, awaiting a reply, we'll see what he comes back with.
The only place I've seen low mileage engines pop up is on a standalone basis (no car included). This means I don't get the ECU, O2 sensors, and harnesses Tom says I need to do the conversion job correctly. Not sure where other folks are finding these low mileage wrecks for engine donors but I haven't seen one back when I was looking in 2015 when first thinking about this or recently when I decided to do it. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
All4You
Samba Member
Joined: March 01, 2015
Posts: 146
Location: NY
|
| Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 7:17 am Post subject: Re: Choosing 2.2 versus 2.5 Subaru for swap? |
|
|
Hi there,
There are many paths to take. Since you're in Ohio, I can recommend Central Auto Recycling in Syracuse NY; good people that take pride in what they do! Ask for Joe and mention to him the 2.5 Subaru he sent for my vanagon 2 years ago. Cost was about 1600 for engine with 50k miles and FULL WIRING HARNESS from same car. I saw picture of the side impact car and also got a carfax from them. I included detailed list from RMW for him to follow for harness extraction. They also replace head gaskets, belts and water pump routinely. Would also get the high and low AC Hoses that come out of compressor. Shipping by crate was around 150.
This might not apply to you, but anything that made my life easier and saved me time, was worth the little bit in extra cost.
Hope this helps and I wish you success
All4Him
_________________
86' Syncro, EJ25
------------------
Build Thread
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=647477&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
Last edited by All4You on Wed Mar 29, 2017 7:19 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dobryan
Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2006
Posts: 16503
Location: Brookeville, MD
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jeffsab
Samba Member
Joined: August 30, 2011
Posts: 93
Location: Portland, OR
|
| Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 8:21 am Post subject: Re: Choosing 2.2 versus 2.5 Subaru for swap? |
|
|
| Keep looking. I recently bought a complete running and driving Legacy with 120k miles for $600. Here in the midwest, we have rust on our side! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
flyboyaviator
Samba Member
Joined: November 29, 2009
Posts: 154
Location: South Florida
|
| Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:32 am Post subject: Re: Choosing 2.2 versus 2.5 Subaru for swap? |
|
|
| Why not go with the EE20 diesel, some on this site is doing it. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
888
Samba Member
Joined: May 11, 2006
Posts: 118
Location: SW Ohio
|
| Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 3:54 pm Post subject: Re: Choosing 2.2 versus 2.5 Subaru for swap? |
|
|
| flyboyaviator wrote: |
| Why not go with the EE20 diesel, some on this site is doing it. |
I want something common that has lots of donors and spare parts supply. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
david2676
Samba Member
Joined: September 06, 2008
Posts: 452
Location: san jose, ca
|
| Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 6:28 pm Post subject: Re: Choosing 2.2 versus 2.5 Subaru for swap? |
|
|
2.5 ... I did the install on my own with help of a friend the first time second one was a one man job. Its not the all that hard once you figure out what to do ..
have someone mod you harness unless you are experienced with wiring it leaves to much room for errors. there is plenty to do anyway.
Personally I think its easier to get the unit in with the transaxle mounted to the engine. It an be down with the tran in but when you add up the time its just easier to drop the transaxle.
after driving a 2.2 then driving my 2.5 you notice the difference ... enough to where my friends who have 2.2'say they are planning to swap to a 2.5.
_________________
64 bug
91 Vanagon/ Subaru swap Westfalia |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
888
Samba Member
Joined: May 11, 2006
Posts: 118
Location: SW Ohio
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 5:29 am Post subject: Re: Choosing 2.2 versus 2.5 Subaru for swap? |
|
|
| WestyBob wrote: |
Just have to concentrate and pay close attention to the schematic without distraction nor long 'down time' in between -- sit down and do it all as much as possible at one time so you can keep it all straight. |
Probably not likely in my case, I don't have the best of attention spans and won't have a lot of time to string together. Another reason to have it done. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Colorado Yeti
Samba Member
Joined: August 25, 2013
Posts: 356
Location: Ft. Collins, Colorado
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 6:10 am Post subject: Re: Choosing 2.2 versus 2.5 Subaru for swap? |
|
|
I understand that you are pretty much set on the 2.5, but I am extremely happy with my 2.2 out of a '96 Leagcy wagon. It had 110,000 miles, had a new timing belt already and was wrecked in the front end. I ended up buying the car for $500, pulled the engine, sold $300 in parts off of it then took it to the junkjard a got $150 for the rest.
I feel that my van has a fair amount of power, but I have never driven a 2.5 van. I can still maintain 60-65 mph in 3rd gear going up Vail Pass at 11,000 feet. Not too bad for a 5000 lb filing cabinet on wheels. I was always a bit nervous about the 2.5 due to their dodgey reliability record, but others will obviously disagree. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
888
Samba Member
Joined: May 11, 2006
Posts: 118
Location: SW Ohio
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 7:01 am Post subject: Re: Choosing 2.2 versus 2.5 Subaru for swap? |
|
|
Funny you should bring that up. I have been networking with my Subaru contacts and one of them who works for a Subaru dealer nearby has a zero mile rebuilt 2.2 and ECU's from a 98 Legacy for $550.
I'd need to scare up harnesses and 02 sensors but it's tempting.
He has a Vanagon like mine (GL window van) and said the 2.2 was plenty for him. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dobryan
Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2006
Posts: 16503
Location: Brookeville, MD
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 7:20 am Post subject: Re: Choosing 2.2 versus 2.5 Subaru for swap? |
|
|
| 888 wrote: |
Funny you should bring that up. I have been networking with my Subaru contacts and one of them who works for a Subaru dealer nearby has a zero mile rebuilt 2.2 and ECU's from a 98 Legacy for $550.
I'd need to scare up harnesses and 02 sensors but it's tempting.
He has a Vanagon like mine (GL window van) and said the 2.2 was plenty for him. |
There is nothing wrong with a 2.2. It has more power than the wbx, just not as much as the 2.5. If you can scrounge up all the accessories and harness then this sounds like a great deal.
_________________
Dave O
'87 Westy w/ 2002 Subaru EJ25 and Peloquin TBD
"To travel hopefully is a better thing than to arrive." Robert Louis Stevenson
MD>Canada>AK>WA>OR>CA>AZ>UT>WY>SD
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=620646
Building a bus for travel in Europe (euroBus)
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=695371
The Western Syncro build
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=746794 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
888
Samba Member
Joined: May 11, 2006
Posts: 118
Location: SW Ohio
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 7:32 am Post subject: Re: Choosing 2.2 versus 2.5 Subaru for swap? |
|
|
| dobryan wrote: |
There is nothing wrong with a 2.2. It has more power than the wbx, just not as much as the 2.5. If you can scrounge up all the accessories and harness then this sounds like a great deal. |
Thanks for the input.
Talking with another buddy who is an ex-Subaru mechanic, he doesn't think the harnesses etc are going to be that hard to come up with. Some 2.2 and 2.5 stuff interchanges, he sent me a link he uses for interchanging.
Apparently Subarus aren't like VW's where it sometimes seems like every one is partially handmade.
For example, the Bentley manual didn't match my Vanagon when it came to the wiring harness, but that's hardly unusual in the later watercooled cars I usually deal with.
I've worked for a German machine company for almost 20 years and their documentation is merely a suggestion of what is actually in the machine or how it's wired. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bobbyblack 
Samba Member
Joined: May 21, 2015
Posts: 4351
Location: United States, Iowa
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 7:45 am Post subject: Re: Choosing 2.2 versus 2.5 Subaru for swap? |
|
|
I agree with Dave O, the 2.2 at around 137 HP is about 50% more HP than the stock WBX (on its best days). Yes the 2.5 is another handful of HP more, and all that is good, of course. I keep the early 2.2's non-interference design on the weightier end of the scale of my Why's list. Really won't matter tho, if you replace the belt, and do it at each 60K miles or so. Anyway, get what makes sense to you. Did you read up benplace.com on why he chooses early 2000's for his conversions? Other than the throttle by wire, I agree with him. I don't like the idea of relying on a computer and foot controller interface to make my car go faster. A pedal connected via throttle cable to the engine seems less likely to be problematic.
Just to add, My EV Westy had something like 201 HP. That was actually the best part of the experience with that rig. The other stuff was 'nice' but the engine made it fun. I still can't believe VW isn't bringing the California to the US. Oh well.
_________________
'87 Westy 'Flossie','86 Westy 'R1','86 tintop GL - Subi2.2 'J2','83.5 stock tintop L 'ZoomBus','74 Karmann Ghia, '63 Notch |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
