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busdaddy
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Joined: February 12, 2004
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Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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 Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2018 8:51 pm Post subject: Re: '47 Beetle resurrection |
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Having done some tool and die work on a few vintage Japanese parts those problems are rather small compared to the overall part, that's not something you whip up in your back yard garage with basic hand tools, no doubt with feedback the next batch will be better. The design, build, testing and development time to make a part like that is huge, tweaking it to iron out those last few details takes almost as much time again and sometimes requires a whole new tool system, the wasted sheet metal for testing adds up as well. Getting that corner sharper may require time on a 3 story high drop hammer opposed to the 2 story one they used for those for example, the alternative is skilled goons going at them with hammers and torches before shipment (looks like they've already had some hand work post stamping already), either way it all adds up. The maker may have a significant investment in them already and may or may not care to bring them to the next level, or he may be waiting to recover some costs to fund the rework since he's almost broke after the first round. Or maybe the parts they used as templates to start with weren't as perfect as they could have been? Don't go throwing the maker under the bus until you yourself have made a better version 
Either way those look one hell of a lot better than a beat down used fender or modifying a later one, most of the problems leave enough meat to file holes bigger or rework edges down smaller, much better than not leaving enough.
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WrennMetallWerks
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Location: Rescue ca
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mikeandkirsti
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Joined: June 16, 2009
Posts: 286
Location: EU
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| Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 2:29 am Post subject: Re: '47 Beetle resurrection |
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Looks like finding fixable originals and spending money to fix them is a better investment than expensive poor fitting repros........
| WrennMetallWerks wrote: |
We are fortunate to have about 10 oval and split rear OG fenders here in the shop ranging from 1944 to 1957 I grabbed a bunch off the wall for comparison. I hope these can shed so light on the situation
Please note: regardless of our discoveries (correct or not) both my son and I agree we much rather work this reproduction example then start form zero with a original donor. |
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Martin Southwell
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Joined: November 24, 2010
Posts: 986
Location: Bath, England
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| Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 3:54 am Post subject: Re: '47 Beetle resurrection |
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Like many, I thought this might be the answer to a prayer, but seemingly not! For those needing to repair original wings, then Mika's inner wing flange repair section, ie where the bolts pass through will be of great help. I have a set of these waiting to be fitted to any wing/fender requiring them, but luckily have recently acquired a set of nice original 54 wings, which will have the rear light dimples added to make it correct for the 47.
http://restorationpanels.com/product/rear-fender-ribbed-inner-repair-flanges/ |
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vwhelmot
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Joined: May 04, 2006
Posts: 617
Location: united kingdom
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| Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 5:28 am Post subject: Re: '47 Beetle resurrection |
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| At first I thought that wasn't much of a problem but those issues are not easily fixed. They are miles off. I cant understand how they think they are good enough? Did they not have an original wing to check , its not like you have to have a NOS 47 rear wing to check the measurements off either, any oval / split wing would suffice. |
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pastellgreen
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Joined: January 06, 2012
Posts: 1049
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 5:59 am Post subject: Re: '47 Beetle resurrection |
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Perhaps interesting:
These new reproduced rear fenders are reproduced in the original way with large presses. The tools are reconstructed after comparing several original fenders and taking measuremants by laser. During examination they found out, that there are many differences between the right and the left side. They decided not to measure one fender and doing a mirror for the other side, but copied both completely with all inperfections and differences between the sides as VW had in their own tools.
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DSweinhagen
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Joined: July 30, 2002
Posts: 382
Location: Phoenix, AZ
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| Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 7:05 am Post subject: Re: '47 Beetle resurrection |
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Thanks again for the feedback Jason. I still think they look pretty good and agree with you, I'd rather use these than whatever donor you could find these days.
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WrennMetallWerks
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WrennMetallWerks
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D-train
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Joined: January 08, 2007
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| Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 12:15 pm Post subject: Re: '47 Beetle resurrection |
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Jason, even tho they arnt perfect. They are a great base with hopefully less work than repairing some beat up originals.
Can’t wait to see the modifications that you do to make them fit. And if the company you got them from reads all your feedback, and takes it as constructive feedback, not as negative feedback and act on them with changes to the product if they can they also would benefit from it also.
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WrennMetallWerks
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WrennMetallWerks
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WrennMetallWerks
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wcfvw69 
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Joined: June 10, 2004
Posts: 13389
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 5:56 pm Post subject: Re: '47 Beetle resurrection |
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I would not feel bad whatsoever about a fair and honest assessment of these new fenders. You've been fully transparent with your findings for the sake of the community. My view is vendors/manufactures need to be held accountable for their products and services. Even more so at this price point.
It would be great to see the manufacturer of these fenders come on here and address your findings. $1100-1200 per fender for that quality is shocking forsure.
I'm also surprised their QC wasn't MUCH better than this before they started shipping these off. How were you able to quickly ascertain the many issues noted and the maker wasn't? 
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splitjunkie
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| Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 6:46 pm Post subject: Re: '47 Beetle resurrection |
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| wcfvw69 wrote: |
I would not feel bad whatsoever about a fair and honest assessment of these new fenders. You've been fully transparent with your findings for the sake of the community. My view is vendors/manufactures need to be held accountable for their products and services. Even more so at this price point.
It would be great to see the manufacturer of these fenders come on here and address your findings. $1100-1200 per fender for that quality is shocking forsure.
I'm also surprised their QC wasn't MUCH better than this before they started shipping these off. How were you able to quickly ascertain the many issues noted and the maker wasn't? |
I agree. These are from Germany and I hate to say it, they look more like they are from China. This is really kind of shocking because by all accounts they knocked it out of the park on their Heb parts. That is why I incorrectly assumed that something must have been misaligned on this car for those to fit so poorly. Obviously a dumb assumption. All of Jason's work is top notch.
For what those cost they should be close to perfect. I would be curious as to how much the labor would be for Jason to modify a set of these so they fit correctly.
As far as these being a good base, I guess so but if that is the case then they should cut the price in half. As it is you would probably be in for $3500 to $4000 for a set of these rear fenders by the time you got all of the issues sorted out.
I hope that the vendor will correct all of these problems before shipping more.
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You know, a lot of these scratches will buff right out... Jerry Seinfeld
Last edited by splitjunkie on Thu Dec 13, 2018 7:14 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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OvalTeenAZ
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Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 7:13 pm Post subject: Re: '47 Beetle resurrection |
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Rant...
If you do not know what it takes to source an original fender let alone rework it then you shoul not speak on the reproduction fenders...
The industry professionals know that even fitting a 1951 fender on a 1951 car it can require reworking just Jason has shown above....
A lot of 1947 cars were crude when it came to gaps, fit, Finnish ECT ..
When these cars were made in the 1950s by the 100,000 of thousands, VW metal shop slapped them together and had plenty of parts to choose from if one did not fit properly.
Why do you think there were so many NOS body panels??? They didn’t pass quality control.
From my real world experience in welding on these cars there’s a sold 3-5mm difference on the 1953-1957 beetles I have had my hands on....
I think those fenders are great! Industry changing product |
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splitjunkie
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| Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 7:25 pm Post subject: Re: '47 Beetle resurrection |
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| OvalTeenAZ wrote: |
Rant...
If you do not know what it takes to source an original fender let alone rework it then you shoul not speak on the reproduction fenders...
The industry professionals know that even fitting a 1951 fender on a 1951 car it can require reworking just Jason has shown above....
A lot of 1947 cars were crude when it came to gaps, fit, Finnish ECT ..
When these cars were made in the 1950s by the 100,000 of thousands, VW metal shop slapped them together and had plenty of parts to choose from if one did not fit properly.
Why do you think there were so many NOS body panels??? They didn’t pass quality control.
From my real world experience in welding on these cars there’s a sold 3-5mm difference on the 1953-1957 beetles I have had my hands on....
I think those fenders are great! Industry changing product |
So much wrong with this post.
Funny because like I said earlier, I have a set of VW of Brazil fenders that fit perfectly on my '51. I have traded fenders on splits and ovals and as long as they were genuine VW they fit great. Nothing like these repros.
First, VW didn't have a pile of parts to pick from such that they might have to try several fenders to get one that fits.
VW had very high standards so parts that weren't up to snuff wouldn't make it to the parts bin very often.
NOS panels that were made by VW were not parts that didn't pass QC. They were spare parts that were the same as what went into the cars when they were built. VW didn't sell seconds as replacement parts.
There are plenty of NOS parts out there that don't fit well because they weren't made by VW. They were aftermarket so their quality was all over the map.
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Chris
You know, a lot of these scratches will buff right out... Jerry Seinfeld |
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splitjunkie
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| Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 7:39 pm Post subject: Re: '47 Beetle resurrection |
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| pastellgreen wrote: |
Perhaps interesting:
These new reproduced rear fenders are reproduced in the original way with large presses. The tools are reconstructed after comparing several original fenders and taking measuremants by laser. During examination they found out, that there are many differences between the right and the left side. They decided not to measure one fender and doing a mirror for the other side, but copied both completely with all inperfections and differences between the sides as VW had in their own tools.
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Yes there are differences from side to side. That is not in dispute. As is shown in those pictures they used large pantograph routers that used wooden or light metal patterns. You didn't have 3d laser scanners and CAD back then so you had to rely on measurements, handwork and and other tools to create mirror images of parts. The craftspeople who made dies had a lot of experience under their belts.
That detail is probably very accurate on these repros. What this doesn't account for is fenders being too long, holes stamped in the wrong place and the other details that wind up wit a poor fitting fender.
It should be possible for them to correct these issues and have a great fitting product but that will take time and commitment to fix these problems.
We have other vendors who make parts using a lot of hand work who make very good parts so making the investment in dies should result in a part that fits correctly.
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Chris
You know, a lot of these scratches will buff right out... Jerry Seinfeld |
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WrennMetallWerks
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WrennMetallWerks
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