| Author |
Message |
jkallo
Samba Member
Joined: July 26, 2016
Posts: 208
Location: Chicago
|
 Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 6:44 am Post subject: Blew another ignition switch |
 |
|
On the last trip of 2016 the ignition switch on my van went south. I got a crash course in hotwiring an Vanagon, and we made it home without the assistance of AAA. Once home, I installed the spare switch I had, and all was well. The switch was an uber cheapy I got from Amazon explicitly to be a spare, and I made a mental note to order a more reputable one over the winter.
Fast forward to this weekend, the first trip of the season. Second day of the trip, after running 12 mi in the cold rain, we got back in the van. I accidentally bumped the starter before taking it out of gear. That apparently cooked the ignition switch -- it behaved the same way the last one did. Just like the time before, it fired up immediately when hotwired.
I know the problems with the switch in general, and cheap ones in particular. I also have read up on adding relays. That said, is there anything else I should be investigating that could cause two blown switches essentially 400 mi or so apart?
I read somewhere that an aging starter draws more current and can lead to roasted switches. Should I be concerned about the starter?
Many thanks!
_________________
I'm Joe
The bus is Gus, the 1982 Westy Diesel 1.6na |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
atomatom
Samba Member
Joined: May 15, 2012
Posts: 1867
Location: in an 84 Westy or Bowen Island, BC
|
| Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 6:57 am Post subject: Re: Blew another ignition switch |
|
|
it may be unrelated, but my starter was poorly wired with a relay. i drove through a rainstorm and my starter kicked in at 110kmh. there was a lot of smoke. we didn't even need a tow, trusty wife pushed and we bumped started it. a new starter and the relay removed, and things are fine.
perhaps crawl under and look at what is connected to the starter motor. it isn't particularly easy to get to, but you should be able to stick a phone up and snap some photos. i found a relay zip tied and wrapped in electrical tape.
i would also check your fuses and make sure you have the correct ones. if there is a short, i don't think it should melt the ignition switch. it is worth adding relays, especially for the headlights, as the ignition switch has a lot of current running through it. i'm not clear on the need for the starter relay - i'm not sure of the draw, as it is only the starter solenoid on the ign switch.
if you are at home with your extra ignition switch(es), perhaps repeat what happened. was it a fluke? was it the rain?
_________________
84 Vanagon Westy, 1.9L, California raised but defected to Canada. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Destructo
Samba Member
Joined: July 31, 2006
Posts: 405
Location: Westhampton, MA
|
| Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 7:21 am Post subject: Re: Blew another ignition switch |
|
|
Nope, these switches are all built to fail. If you look at the part where the tumbler engages the switch, it's made of cheap soft plastic. It only takes one strong turn of the key to deform the plastic so the ignition switch can't be fully engaged by the key anymore.
If you take the plug off the switch and plug it into an old "worn out" switch and engage it with a flat head screwdriver, guaranteed the old switches you thought were broke all work.
Just carry the old ones in your glove box and if a new one wears out too quick you can simply unplug the wires and plug them into an old one and off you go. I'll see if I can get a picture up later of what I'm taking about.
_________________
1985 Wolfsburg Edition Westfalia Camper Bostig conversion
Dude, where's your van? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jkallo
Samba Member
Joined: July 26, 2016
Posts: 208
Location: Chicago
|
| Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 7:29 am Post subject: Re: Blew another ignition switch |
|
|
| Destructo wrote: |
| Nope, these switches are all built to fail. If you look at the part where the tumbler engages the switch, it's made of cheap soft plastic. It only takes one strong turn of the key to deform the plastic so the ignition switch can't be fully engaged by the key anymore. |
Holy cr*p that would make TOTAL sense. When I bumped the starter, the van jerked and I'm sure I twisted the key harder than normal as a result. The previous time, the switch died in the middle of a stressful hard-start situation (very cold morning, glowplug problem), so I am sure I could have twisted the key harder than I would have normally.
It never occurred to me that the problem is that the slot gets deformed. I thought it was the contacts getting fried from the current. I'll defintely test the screwdriver theory when I get home.
I also should note that a PO installed a very low quality ignition cylinder/key. It always feels like it's not quite turning all the way etc. It could be that it's also chewing up the switches. I have a VW OEM one on the way with the replacement switch.
| Destructo wrote: |
Just carry the old ones in your glove box and if a new one wears out too quick you can simply unplug the wires and plug them into an old one and off you go. I'll see if I can get a picture up later of what I'm taking about. |
Yeah, and turning the switch with a screwdriver would be a hell of a lot easier than the three jumpers it takes to hotwire it and have windshield wipers/headlights!
_________________
I'm Joe
The bus is Gus, the 1982 Westy Diesel 1.6na |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Destructo
Samba Member
Joined: July 31, 2006
Posts: 405
Location: Westhampton, MA
|
| Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 7:37 am Post subject: Re: Blew another ignition switch |
|
|
Once I figured out why I had gone through 6 of them over the past three years, I tested all of my "fried" ones. Because you know, I own a Vanagon and seem to hoard old parts even if they're broken.
Every single one of them worked. It's a hell of a lot easier than cutting and splicing wires.
I'm currently running around with this "temp" fix as we speak, because I've gotten so lazy using it. So no one sees it if they're eying up my vehicle I just tuck it behind the plastic steering column cover.
_________________
1985 Wolfsburg Edition Westfalia Camper Bostig conversion
Dude, where's your van? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dobryan
Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2006
Posts: 16501
Location: Brookeville, MD
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jkallo
Samba Member
Joined: July 26, 2016
Posts: 208
Location: Chicago
|
| Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 7:40 am Post subject: Re: Blew another ignition switch |
|
|
| dobryan wrote: |
| I assume that you still need to use your key to disable the steering wheel lock though? |
Yes, and you definitely don't want to forget to do that until you're driving down the road (don't ask me how I know that).
_________________
I'm Joe
The bus is Gus, the 1982 Westy Diesel 1.6na |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dobryan
Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2006
Posts: 16501
Location: Brookeville, MD
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bluebus86
Banned
Joined: September 02, 2010
Posts: 11075
|
| Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 7:48 am Post subject: Re: Blew another ignition switch |
|
|
installation of relays can expetend the life of the switch if high current is the cause of failure. the start soliniod is a high draw device that could use a relay, heck I even added a relay for my spark coil. still using the factory key switch the relays werent installed until the van was over 20 years old. some key switches seem to last, I never had a heavy key chain dangling from it, maybe that is key, get it, key? hahaha
_________________
Help Prevent VW Engine Fires, see this link.....Engine safety wire information
Stop introducing dirt into your oil when adjusting valves ... https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=683022 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
atomatom
Samba Member
Joined: May 15, 2012
Posts: 1867
Location: in an 84 Westy or Bowen Island, BC
|
| Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 8:33 am Post subject: Re: Blew another ignition switch |
|
|
| Destructo wrote: |
| Because you know, I own a Vanagon and seem to hoard old parts even if they're broken. |
truth!
_________________
84 Vanagon Westy, 1.9L, California raised but defected to Canada. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jkallo
Samba Member
Joined: July 26, 2016
Posts: 208
Location: Chicago
|
| Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 8:55 am Post subject: Re: Blew another ignition switch |
|
|
| atomatom wrote: |
| Destructo wrote: |
| Because you know, I own a Vanagon and seem to hoard old parts even if they're broken. |
truth! |
I have the first switch that "blew" in my parts bin too.
_________________
I'm Joe
The bus is Gus, the 1982 Westy Diesel 1.6na |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jkallo
Samba Member
Joined: July 26, 2016
Posts: 208
Location: Chicago
|
| Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 3:54 pm Post subject: Re: Blew another ignition switch |
|
|
Got home and checked out the last switch (haven't taken the current one out yet). Yep, the slot on the top definitely distorted. Plugged it into the pigtail and turned it with a screwdriver. Fired right up.
Apparently I am Conan the Barbarian with my key turning might. Thanks for the help! This is a very useful thing to know.
_________________
I'm Joe
The bus is Gus, the 1982 Westy Diesel 1.6na |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
IdahoDoug
Samba Member
Joined: June 12, 2010
Posts: 10248
Location: N. Idaho
|
| Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 4:03 pm Post subject: Re: Blew another ignition switch |
|
|
This is an interesting development to know. It's just a deformity in the plastic? I too have several "old" ones for no apparent reason whatsoever. Anyone think of a clever little reinforcement for that slot? Is it that the starter's engaged at a certain point, but the key will turn farther and mashes that slot out of shape. Meaning next time you turn the key, your key's angle is more and more behind the switch's actual angle inside as to metal connections being made. And with use that angle gets greater until the key itself runs out of travel and the contacts are still not made?
I'm brillant, I know. Just wanted to show off. Anyhow, what about making an epoxy pocket by filling it, then dremeling out a slot for the key/ignition to fit into this now "hardened" pocket?
_________________
1987 2WD Wolfsburg Vanagon Weekender "Mango", two fully locked 80 Series LandCruisers. 2017 Subaru Outback boxer. 1990 Audi 90 Quattro 20V with rear locking differential, 1990 burgundy parts Vanagon. 1984 Porsche 944, 1988 Toyota Supra 5 speed targa, 2002 BMW 325iX, 1982 Toyota Sunrader |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jkallo
Samba Member
Joined: July 26, 2016
Posts: 208
Location: Chicago
|
| Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 5:07 pm Post subject: Re: Blew another ignition switch |
|
|
| IdahoDoug wrote: |
| Is it that the starter's engaged at a certain point, but the key will turn farther and mashes that slot out of shape. Meaning next time you turn the key, your key's angle is more and more behind the switch's actual angle inside as to metal connections being made. And with use that angle gets greater until the key itself runs out of travel and the contacts are still not made? |
I think that's exactly it. In my case, I am going to blame the crummy $5 key tumbler unit. I bet that it allows the little metal extension to rotate farther than the switch is designed to rotate. Do that hard a few times and the slot gets too wide -- the key runs out of travel. Still works when you do it with a screwdriver, of course, because your wrist can rotate far enough to make the contact (and prove that you sat in your van for 25 min dripping wet in 40f searching for your old Samba post describing how to hotwire it completely needlessly -- but I digress).
Once you see the problem, it boggles the mind that they didn't make that interface all metal. But you also definitely see how lighter/cheaper plastics really compound this design problem.
_________________
I'm Joe
The bus is Gus, the 1982 Westy Diesel 1.6na |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Chestercopperpot
Samba Member
Joined: March 26, 2017
Posts: 114
Location: Colorado
|
| Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 5:22 pm Post subject: Re: Blew another ignition switch |
|
|
[quote="jkallo"]
| Destructo wrote: |
| Nope, these switches are all built to fail. If you look at the part where the tumbler engages the switch, it's made of cheap soft plastic. It only takes one strong turn of the key to deform the plastic so the ignition switch can't be fully engaged by the key anymore. |
They are not built to hold the power on the circuit when it is held open for a period of time like those experienced during hard start situations while shedding max amps.
The contacts heat and then transfer heat in the form of deformation to the to the plastic. At this point, or shortly after, it fails outright.
Lose some load amps from x and add a new switch. Don't expect it to handle more than a lite load...it is just a switch. Bump starting prolly had little affect..more what led to bump start. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jkallo
Samba Member
Joined: July 26, 2016
Posts: 208
Location: Chicago
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 6:19 am Post subject: Re: Blew another ignition switch |
|
|
Closing the loop on this one:
Yesterday I replaced both the switch and ignition cylinder. Like the previous "fried" switch, this one worked fine with a screwdriver. Also like the other one, the top was deformed.
I am 95% sure this was due to aftermarket ignition cylinder a PO had installed. It was a Beck Arnley thing and it was total crap: tons of slop in the travel of the metal stick-outy-bit. I replaced it with a new VW produced one from GoWesty. Everything feels much more solid now.
Bottom line: if you're "blowing" switches, might want to verify that they're actually bad. If they're not, make sure slop in your ignition cylinder isn't causing the problem.
_________________
I'm Joe
The bus is Gus, the 1982 Westy Diesel 1.6na |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
