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Waterboxer electronic ignition in a type 3
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Variant
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 2:44 am    Post subject: Waterboxer electronic ignition in a type 3 Reply with quote

Greetings everyone!!

Thought I should share this with you as I am really stoked with how this conversion is turning out. I have recently installed the Bosch TCI-h system - from a 1.9l waterboxer, on the T-series type 3 engine in my '69 Notchback. (This is a standard, late model, 1600cc, twin-port, twin-carb engine.) The centrifugal advance curve has been adjusted to suit the T-series engine and the appropriate vacuum advance for this engine was fitted to the distributor. The vacuum orifice in the venturi of the left hand carburettor (VW 118-1) has been blocked off so that only the orifice below the throttle plate is in use. This is to create a load sensitive vacuum signal for the distributor. The digital idle stabilizer wasn't fitted as there is no load, other than the generator, on the engine at idle speed.

This system has been under test/in use for approximately 15 000 miles with no reliability issues at all. Some minor fine tuning of the advance curves has been done as I am gaining experience with this system. It is a huge improvement over the original points system. The engine starts easier & idles better - especially when hot, acceleration is smoother & there is a small improvement in fuel consumption. The conversion was prompted by the poor quality of points & condensers that are currently on the market - even good brand names like Bosch, Beru etc. I have had out-of-the-box failures with condensers and both my cars have been stranded on the side of the road as result of failed condensers. I use my cars a lot, so reliability is a big issue for me.

The parts used are as follows:
Distributor: VW 025 905 201 N
Rotor: VW 071 905 225 A
Vacuum advance unit: VW 043 905 271 (Perfutubo 473)
TCI: VW 191 905 351 B
Ignition coil: Bosch 0 221 122 023

Here are some picture of the installation:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Kind regards,
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'69 1600L Squareback Automatic
'69 1600A Notchback
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tdrrally
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 6:20 am    Post subject: Re: Waterboxer electronic ignition in a type 3 Reply with quote

i like it!!

i will give this a go on my beetle and my squareback

thank you
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sjbartnik
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 6:26 am    Post subject: Re: Waterboxer electronic ignition in a type 3 Reply with quote

Pretty cool!

Needless to say this will only work on carbureted Type 3s as you can't replace the distributor on FI cars unless you're able to figure out some other way to trigger the fuel injectors.
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 7:36 am    Post subject: Re: Waterboxer electronic ignition in a type 3 Reply with quote

sjbartnik wrote:
Pretty cool!

Needless to say this will only work on carbureted Type 3s as you can't replace the distributor on FI cars unless you're able to figure out some other way to trigger the fuel injectors.


Yes......you can use it with D-jet. Just swap the guts into the dizzy. It takes a few mods. I did it many years ago on a 411.

Its a really nice sysyem in the fact that using the transistorized systems coil gives you 55Kv as compared to the barely adequate 18kv that the stock coil system puts out.

I used a system from a water cooled rabbit of jetta. I did not use tlany parts of the control system .....only ignition. Advance was vacuum.

I am not far off from installing a hall triggering unit from an 83 GTI in my 412 with D-jet. My distributor is virtually identical to type 3 except for drive dog position.

Maybe summer. I will post a thread of how I do it when I get there.
I lucked out and found three brwnd new hall sets NOS from Rockauto for $17 each.

The issues with hall units are that the trigger unit must use the correct voltage output control module and the coil must be closely matched. Ray
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Variant
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 7:41 am    Post subject: Re: Waterboxer electronic ignition in a type 3 Reply with quote

sjbartnik wrote:
Pretty cool!

Needless to say this will only work on carbureted Type 3s as you can't replace the distributor on FI cars unless you're able to figure out some other way to trigger the fuel injectors.


I did ask the distributor guru about that since type 4's were available with D-Jetronic FI over here. He recons it is possible to convert an FI distributor to take a hall sensor. Would be a rather intricate job tho.
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 10:59 am    Post subject: Re: Waterboxer electronic ignition in a type 3 Reply with quote

Variant wrote:
sjbartnik wrote:
Pretty cool!

Needless to say this will only work on carbureted Type 3s as you can't replace the distributor on FI cars unless you're able to figure out some other way to trigger the fuel injectors.


I did ask the distributor guru about that since type 4's were available with D-Jetronic FI over here. He recons it is possible to convert an FI distributor to take a hall sensor. Would be a rather intricate job tho.


Its not too hard....but has as you note a couple of intricate issues.

NOTE....once you do this modification the distributor will never again be able to use points...unless you do something funky like build a drop in shaft cam

I started the process last month on an old distributor. I am not ready to post details and pictures yet but its kind of like this:

1. Completely disassemble distributor..shaft out etc. Put in new bushings and shims while you are at it.

2. Have the shaft turned or machined on a lathe...to completely remove the points cam....but be careful to make sure you do not reduce the diameter smaller than the collar in the hall effect unit shutter wheel.

I made a jig to hold the shaft between bearings so I could work it on my bench grinder with fresh wheels.
I have a pretty decent Metabo DS-200 bench grinder which is very smooth so doing a progressive grind was not hard.

The stock D-jet distributor shaft from the top where the oil wick is down to the points cam and then underneath the points cam is almost a dead fit for the shutter wheel on the Beck Arnley (made in Italy ) Hall trigger kit for the rabbit/Sirocco.


3. The decision point here is how you want to operate your advance mechanism.

I am looking at this three different ways:

A. Use the stock vacuum advance....and to do that you will remove the top and bottom points plate as the hall effect module and its movement plate will be is screwed to the distributor body. You may have to drill one new hole position to mount it

On the water cooled cars...the lug or pin for the vacuum advance was on the bottom side of the hall effect plate. I am working out whether I can extend a pin upward or whether I will have to make a staggered arm extension to work with the lug underneath the support plate like the water cooled car.

B. you can lock out centrifugal advance and lock shaft movement with a set screw or remove the centrifugal advance plate altogether. Its temporary since its actually splined to the distributor shaft...and only use vacuum (not recommended)....or lock it out and use a CB performance black box. In that case...you may as well remove vacuum advance and simplify.

C. Depending on which hall setup you use...you may be able to use some of the timing logic of its system for your advance. This can get into a lot of options...like slaving in a digifant control unit and actually using its knock sensor....lots of places it can take your imagination.

4. Once you have the hall module situated....you slip the shutter wheel down the shaft and mark your height with a scribe. Then remove it and install a groove on the shaft. Mount the shaft on a 5/16" rod going through the center...almost a dead fit...and set up a dremel tool with cut-off wheel and you can make a nice snap ring groove so its just like the water cooled cars.

You do the same on the top side of the shutter wheel.

5. Using volt meter...set up your timing to the mark on the distributor for rotor position. Then mark the notch the shutter wheel has in in on the shaft. Remove the wheel and carefully grind a vertical groove in the shaft between the snap ring grooves. This is for the round key that comes with the shutter wheel.
You tap it in with a punch and re-install the snap ring and the shaft and shutter wheel are done.

The bits and pieces of Hall effect are that each Hall module generates a specific current level and your module must match that. And your coil must work within that system too.

The cool thing is that these are REALLY reliable, have a square wave output pattern of on/off. Precise....and can trigger almost anything.

http://www.wellsve.com/sft503/Counterpoint3_1.pdf

Some basic information

By the way...I keep telling people to pay attention to and browse Rockauto.

Right now...again....they have a manufacturers closeout sale price on these very units...from 1983 Rabbit ....for $17. Beck Arnley kit

The Airtex wells set is $205.79 and the Standard Motor products kit is $210.79

Part # 1800221

Fits these cars:
AUDI 4000 1980-1983
VOLKSWAGEN DASHER 1980
VOLKSWAGEN JETTA 1981-1983
VOLKSWAGEN QUANTUM 1982-1983
VOLKSWAGEN RABBIT 1983
VOLKSWAGEN RABBIT PICKUP 1983
VOLKSWAGEN SCIROCCO 1981-1983

Even if you are just thinking about this...you can spare $17 plus $5 shipping to have it close by.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Here is the kit from Beck Arnley. Its just a complete replacement and repair kit for the shutter and hall module.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


This is a picture of the Airtex wells unit just so you can see what it looks like and the plate mounting tabs.

I would swear these are all made in the same place as the Beck Arnley kit looks identical.

More to come if you are interested.

Ray
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Variant
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 12:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Waterboxer electronic ignition in a type 3 Reply with quote

Thanks Ray. That is really great info. Please keep posting more!! Cool
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'69 1600L Squareback Automatic
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jaxdream
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 7:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Waterboxer electronic ignition in a type 3 Reply with quote

Please Ray give us more , as this ignition system could be applied to other Types of VW air cooled engines .
Thanks Jack A
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 8:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Waterboxer electronic ignition in a type 3 Reply with quote

jaxdream wrote:
Please Ray give us more , as this ignition system could be applied to other Types of VW air cooled engines .
Thanks Jack A


It wont be long...maybe a month....and I will install this in a type 4 body. I will add it to thiw thread when I get there. Ray
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