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Best place for rear lowering spring plates?
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sidemarkers
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Best place for rear lowering spring plates? Reply with quote

Bruce wrote:
sidemarkers wrote:
... is almost unbelievable.

That's because there's no difference.
Any improvement is all in your mind. Or you did other changes at the same time.
The spring plate is only a connecting link between the torsion bar and the TA. The shape of this rigid connection is irrelevant.


Very close to my thoughts when the drop plates first were marketed. I now think that the "shape" of the rigid assembly is fundamentally less important than the relationship it has on where the spring plates rest under load.

Pic 1 shows preloaded plates resting on stops while vehicle is on jackstands:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Pic 2 shows suspension assembled and plates riding just above the stops while vehicle is on all 4 wheels supporting it's own weight:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


This is the relationship that gets lost when indexing, and subsequently gets restored when using drop plates.
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Bruce
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 5:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Best place for rear lowering spring plates? Reply with quote

sidemarkers wrote:
Bruce wrote:
sidemarkers wrote:
... is almost unbelievable.

That's because there's no difference.
Any improvement is all in your mind. Or you did other changes at the same time.
The spring plate is only a connecting link between the torsion bar and the TA. The shape of this rigid connection is irrelevant.

... where the spring plates rest under load.

You have been deluded by Charles' ignorance.
When you're driving down the road, is the bottom edge of the spring plate touching the ledge of the shock tower? NO! In both yours and a stock spring plate'd car, neither are touching the bottom limit.
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sidemarkers
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 6:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Best place for rear lowering spring plates? Reply with quote

The 2nd part of your assertion is correct. Both a stock spring plate with factory index and my 3 inch drop plate with factory index have +/- quarter of an inch gap from the ledge of the shock tower.

Indexing changes this distance, correct?
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Bruce
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 7:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Best place for rear lowering spring plates? Reply with quote

sidemarkers wrote:

Indexing changes this distance, correct?

The amount of air space is irrelevant. It has no effect on the ride.
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sidemarkers
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 7:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Best place for rear lowering spring plates? Reply with quote

Bruce wrote:
sidemarkers wrote:

Indexing changes this distance, correct?

The amount of air space is irrelevant. It has no effect on the ride.


...or the tire wear from toe problems. I'm not claiming that drop plates are necessary, indexing "worked" on my cars for the past 25 years.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 2:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Best place for rear lowering spring plates? Reply with quote

sidemarkers wrote:

Pic 1 shows preloaded plates resting on stops while vehicle is on jackstands:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

If this is your car, can you take another photo like this, with the wheel off, but with the jackstand under the rotor? Simulating the car on all 4 tires.
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sidemarkers
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 10:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Best place for rear lowering spring plates? Reply with quote

Bruce,

Like the pic I posted earlier of the suspension actually loaded on 4 wheels?
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


How would a photo simulating the loading of the suspension add to this discussion?
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 12:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Best place for rear lowering spring plates? Reply with quote

sidemarkers wrote:
Like the pic I posted earlier of the suspension actually loaded on 4 wheels?

Yes, but without the tire in the way, blocking the view of the TA.
sidemarkers wrote:
How would a photo simulating the loading of the suspension add to this discussion?

With the pic I can explain. I will print the pic and mark it up.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Best place for rear lowering spring plates? Reply with quote

Here you go Bruce. Looking forward to your analysis.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2017 6:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Best place for rear lowering spring plates? Reply with quote

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Looks to have less negative camber? The 3 inch plates are about the equivalent of 2 splines.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 8:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Best place for rear lowering spring plates? Reply with quote

Charles,

Don't bring me down.

-Bruce
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:19 am    Post subject: Re: Best place for rear lowering spring plates? Reply with quote

Yeah the idea of simply reindexing compared to drop/lift plates Seems the same
My question is
Do drop plates index the axle so it is farther back and slightly tilted to compensate for pinion angle Or the fact that Either will move the center of the wheel farther inboard the fender opening

( on my 65 C10 the arms are so long but they're truck arms so when I actually end up lowering it will actually set the Pivot Point higher on the frame to compensate for the pinion change of the axle)

Also I am to believe that Stock ride height Is Not with axle parallel to the horizontal plain
From Trans CV to Wheel CV it is gradient to the wheel
That's why some do tranny raise with extreme lowering

In my 181 I wonder how much I can lift it (probably with lift plates or whatever) before the 930 CVs bind

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I used more than just three bolts it actually had four or five of them but yes I could definitely see using another piece making an extension although at the time the squareback I was doing it on had dual spring plates..
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 5:59 am    Post subject: Re: Best place for rear lowering spring plates? Reply with quote

The one thing about drop plates that is enticing to me is the fact that they allow for full spring plate movement between the hard stops.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 1:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Best place for rear lowering spring plates? Reply with quote

Bashr52 wrote:
The one thing about drop plates that is enticing to me is the fact that they allow for full spring plate movement between the hard stops.


This is one of the benefits of drop plates. When indexing to lower the rear suspension the vehicle ends up with limited downward travel and an abundance of upward travel which accounts for a rough ride and excessive body roll around corners.

The drop plates keep the spring plates where the German engineers designed them to function.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 1:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Best place for rear lowering spring plates? Reply with quote

sharkskinman wrote:
Yeah the idea of simply reindexing compared to drop/lift plates Seems the same
My question is
Do drop plates index the axle so it is farther back and slightly tilted to compensate for pinion angle Or the fact that Either will move the center of the wheel farther inboard the fender opening

( on my 65 C10 the arms are so long but they're truck arms so when I actually end up lowering it will actually set the Pivot Point higher on the frame to compensate for the pinion change of the axle)

Also I am to believe that Stock ride height Is Not with axle parallel to the horizontal plain
From Trans CV to Wheel CV it is gradient to the wheel
That's why some do tranny raise with extreme lowering

In my 181 I wonder how much I can lift it (probably with lift plates or whatever) before the 930 CVs bind

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I used more than just three bolts it actually had four or five of them but yes I could definitely see using another piece making an extension although at the time the squareback I was doing it on had dual spring plates..
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


My personal experience is with drop plates, not raised plates. What I can say is that I switched from stock double spring plates indexed 2 splines to atomwerks single 3 inch drop plates.

The ride height is about the same. What vastly improved is the handling over bumps and around corners also the general feel that the car is more stable. What is odd to me is that my negative camber has lessened which makes the wheels more vertical and now my driver side rubs the inner fender a touch while hitting a big bump when it didn't before. This might have something to do with switching from double spring plates to singles?

From a baja standpoint my only experience is with raising by indexing. The pics show the difference between indexing 1 and 2 splines. When indexing 2 splines I was able to perform a simple modification to alleviate the CV binding.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 2:53 am    Post subject: Re: Best place for rear lowering spring plates? Reply with quote

Bashr52 wrote:
The one thing about drop plates that is enticing to me is the fact that they allow for full spring plate movement between the hard stops.

The drop plates Sidemarker has on his T3 reduce the travel of the spring plate from stock. How is that considered "full spring plate movement"?
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 3:25 am    Post subject: Re: Best place for rear lowering spring plates? Reply with quote

sidemarkers wrote:
Here you go Bruce. Looking forward to your analysis.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Here's my marked up pic:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The blue line and the red line trace the top and bottom edge of your drop plates.
The green lines indicate where a stock spring plate would be at the same ride height.

Your claim:
sidemarkers wrote:
The improved ride quality and handling characteristics with the atomwerks plates vs stock plates indexing 2 splines is almost unbelievable.


Let's say you had stock spring plates on the car and the car set to the same ride height you're at now. With only taking the wheel off, go in there with a cutoff wheel on a die grinder and cut a notch following the blue line.

Now, take the piece you cut off the top of the stock spring plate and weld it to the bottom edge of the spring plate so that it's bottom edge follows the red line.

You haven't disassembled anything and haven't altered the toe or camber. While driving down the road, the bottom edge of that piece you just welded on, doesn't touch the ledge of the shock tower, so the torsion bar still "feels" the exact same amount of twist as it did before you cut and welded.

How did that cause the "unbelievable" change in handling?

Refer back to your original photo. I see a small amount of red under your torsion bar cover plate, so you have urethane grommets in there. Did you put them in at the same time as your drop plates?
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 10:14 am    Post subject: Re: Best place for rear lowering spring plates? Reply with quote

Bruce wrote:
sidemarkers wrote:
Here you go Bruce. Looking forward to your analysis.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Here's my marked up pic:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The blue line and the red line trace the top and bottom edge of your drop plates.
The green lines indicate where a stock spring plate would be at the same ride height.

Your claim:
sidemarkers wrote:
The improved ride quality and handling characteristics with the atomwerks plates vs stock plates indexing 2 splines is almost unbelievable.


Let's say you had stock spring plates on the car and the car set to the same ride height you're at now. With only taking the wheel off, go in there with a cutoff wheel on a die grinder and cut a notch following the blue line.

Now, take the piece you cut off the top of the stock spring plate and weld it to the bottom edge of the spring plate so that it's bottom edge follows the red line.

You haven't disassembled anything and haven't altered the toe or camber. While driving down the road, the bottom edge of that piece you just welded on, doesn't touch the ledge of the shock tower, so the torsion bar still "feels" the exact same amount of twist as it did before you cut and welded.

How did that cause the "unbelievable" change in handling?

Refer back to your original photo. I see a small amount of red under your torsion bar cover plate, so you have urethane grommets in there. Did you put them in at the same time as your drop plates?


Great illustration and questions. I will attempt to break it down using CLOCK ANGLES for reference.
The green line, which represents 2 index splines, is near 2:30
The red line, which represents stock index/drop plates, is near 3:30
With the stock snubber in place the factory intended limit is approximately between 3:45 and 2 o'clock. Furthermore keep in mind that there are lowered vw's without snubbers in the 1:30 range! I regularly drive with 3 other people in the car and have a deep sump so I need the snubbers in place for safety.

From a spring plate standpoint there is only so much toe adjustment built into the slots from factory. The further a suspension deviates from 3 o'clock the more toe-in becomes an issue. Stock spring plates do not have enough adjustment built-in to deal with the angles of excessive indexing. Quality drop plates are designed with proper slotting to deal with these toe issues.

A spring plate in the factory height location is a fraction of an inch from the bottom ledge. This is not just "air space" it's designed to keep the suspension in control by limiting body roll around corners. Lowering via indexing increases this distance which also greatly increases the body roll
and subsequent toe fluxuations between wheels when cornering.

The drop plates I installed are .150 smaller in diameter so replacing the bushings was necessary from a design standpoint. The older ones did have some wear and it's likely the larger surface area of the new bushings provide more dampening ability.

Drop plates might not be a silver bullet, but the differences are noticeable while driving.


Last edited by sidemarkers on Mon Jan 08, 2018 2:45 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 2:39 am    Post subject: Re: Best place for rear lowering spring plates? Reply with quote

Bruce wrote:
Bashr52 wrote:
The one thing about drop plates that is enticing to me is the fact that they allow for full spring plate movement between the hard stops.

The drop plates Sidemarker has on his T3 reduce the travel of the spring plate from stock. How is that considered "full spring plate movement"?


True. What gets reduced is the excessive gap that indexing introduces between the lower stop and the spring plate, makes jacking it up much easier too. A few pumps and the tire is off the ground.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:59 am    Post subject: Re: Best place for rear lowering spring plates? Reply with quote

sidemarkers wrote:
Bruce wrote:
Bashr52 wrote:
The one thing about drop plates that is enticing to me is the fact that they allow for full spring plate movement between the hard stops.

The drop plates Sidemarker has on his T3 reduce the travel of the spring plate from stock. How is that considered "full spring plate movement"?


True. What gets reduced is the excessive gap that indexing introduces between the lower stop and the spring plate, makes jacking it up much easier too. A few pumps and the tire is off the ground.


That is what I was referring too, I did not notice that it actually clocks the outside of the trailing arm closer to the top stop.
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