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ALIKA T3 Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2009 Posts: 6316 Location: Honolulu,Hawaii and France
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Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 9:44 pm Post subject: Automatic transmission rebuild+ custom oil cooler and problems |
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Aloha folks!
I've rebuilt my first automatic transmission, and it's been an interesting first experience.
I cannot thank enough for the profusion of information found on various threads on the forum, the help from members answering my technical questions and a few special mentions to Kourt https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=616506
Djkeev https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0 for their helpful threads.
And Hatchb4ack https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=3872166#3872166 for their helpful threads and their well detailed pictures.
The disassembly was easy and didn't require any book but some patience and care in the process.
The reassembly definitely had major PITA moments for sure. Sometimes, take a deep breath, relax: it can be easier installing a part before the frictions, just think out of the box to find smart solutions
The worst part for me was to mate the differential and transmission together fully.
In the process, I've also added a transmission oil cooler, copied off the Go Westy kit for 140 bucks. Mahalo Sodo for helping me with Hawai'i shipping
EDIT: the hot out should be at the bottom port, not at the top port. The 3 following pictures are WRONG!
I put friction tape under the hose clamps
It is running with type F transmission fluid (Ford FA) following Terry Kay recommendation (similar to B&M trick shift from what he says)
Now I'm having problems with this rebuild.
It got bodged on a previous rebuild, extra disc, transfer plate worn out and "fixed", old parts reused,missing hardware on the valve body etc...
The Westy won't move in D or any other gear when the brake band screw is adjusted to the specs (87 then 43 in/Lbs). Also the adjusting screw is not sticking out of the locking nut but rather recessed a 1/3rd of the way when torqued to specs.
So I unscrewed it, and the van can now move and drive, but won't move in D, although I can tell it wants to (slightly rocking when rev'ing)
I can drive , but I gotta start in 1, it cannot start in 2 either.
Once I have a little bit of speed, I can shift manually in D and all is good, so I'm thinking it's drive 1 and 3 and R, but 2nd doesn't work? But what about in D?? It should be "starting" automatically from a stop in 1st anyway, right?
Kick down spins in the air at low speed unless I release the gas pedal depending how tight the 2nd gear brake band adjustement screw is. I'm not impressed by the kickdown feature. I didn't mess with the accelerator cable, I disconnected the selector off the transmission to not mess up anything.
It shifts beautifully once driving, a little more rough than I would like when engaging the Reverse ( rebuilt axles, 17.000 original miles on VW cv joints, regreased and swapped around for starting like new, so definitely no worn out CV clonking)
If I roll down a hill from a stop on the D position, once I have speed I can get going in D thanks to the momentum.
I don't even know what the 2nd gear brake band does, it obvioulsy squeezes a drum, but it seems like the drum it applies on cannot spin anyway, it's fixed.
Here are the pictures of this adventure
What you need:
Overhaul kit 65006D from Cobra transmission (cheapest I found, and it contains the 3mm steel ball for the valve body in case you loose it) (65006D is equal to 65001D (useful parts in there are oil pan gasket, torque converter seal and governor o'ring and seal) and 65002C.
The friction discs are made by Exedy FYI https://www.exedyusa.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/0...et_web.pdf
The steels are made by Raybestos
I got my piston seals online after digging for some info:
010323479A 1st/Reverse brake piston is NLA but 010323477 with the check ball valve can be mounted too, which is easily available
The 3 piston kit is K79971A and is made in Taiwan by Linesoon, and contains 79970A which is 010323477 , 79973 = 010323217A and 79974 = 010323121B
Parts lists of what you need plus more detailed in the picture:
Not pictured are the selector shaft o'rings, they ended up in the trash before I took the picture.
Bushing kit from GoWesty with the impossibe to find turbine shaft/converter reactor bushing. The kit is a standard bushing kit G-9709 + the GW bushing.
•(1) GW-designed turbine shaft/converter reactor bushing (003519074 AM)
• (1) Direct drive bushing (010323115)
• (1) Small bushing for pump (003321254)
• (1) Large bushing for gear in pump (003323611)
• (1) Torque converter bushing (00323611)
• (2) Sun gear bushings (010323217A)
Helpful catalog for parts http://transmissionkits.com/catalogs-wallcharts/
Helpful exploded view to understand how everything goes. Do not trust the picture for amount of discs and steels http://at-manuals.com/manuals/010-vwaudi-087-089-090-2/
Another similar here http://www.jpat.co.uk/87%20Volkswagen%201%20010%20087etc.pdf
Troubleshooting http://www3.sympatico.ca/tchaad/Lost%20Knowledge/at_010.pdf
This was a free transmission I started with, I spotted it from a roof while installing solar, in the neighbor's yard
Draining the beast.
I didn't like the pieces of white plastic I found inside, so I moved on to another transmission from a parts van I bought a few months ago.
After I separated the 090 transmission unit from the differential unit, I took the pinion bearing flange out to replace the back to back lip seals.
I made a plastic sleeve to help reinstalling the pinion bearing flange. This is absolutely necessary since the first seal to engage is "backwards", fighting the lip. I tried without at first, and I took it apart a week later to double check my half ass work just in case, the rubber lip was bent...
Draining the torque converter
Replacing the bushing
extracting
inserting with a socket
Draining the differential
Oil pan magnet
Cork gasket with Permatex Aviation coating on both sides
I've added locking washers to the missing washers It's much better now
For info, different dispticks on 1.9 and 2.1 . 1.9 is bent to clear the coolant crossover pipe at the top of the engine.
I also replaced the final drive (axle flanges) seals but not the o'rings, those things rarely leak.
Governor seal and o'ring for the cover
New Torque Converter seal. Prefer the metal clad seal over the non metal clad model.
Time to get to the serious stuff now.
Removing the valve body
I can tell this transmission got worked onto before, marks on phillips heads, missing bolt etc...
I'm going on unknown territory here, I haven't opened the Bentley book at this point, so I'm just marking EVERYTHING! Zip tie on the open end of the spring, just in case. Accumulator piston.
New seals installed
Disassembling the selector and kickdown stuff
Taking apart the valves for cleaning
That poor plate has seen better days... I grinded it to "fix" it I'm wondering if my problem can also come from here. I don't know what that ball is doing. It looks like a very archaic way to plug the hole, lots of play around. I pounded it back flat with a brass drift since it was a little warped in this location too. I can tell somebody before me did it too, with less care...
Removing the 2nd gear brake band piston and cover
Yucky
The adjusting set screw and nut for the 2nd gear brake band
Remove the gasket plate (1 flat head screw) then you'll get to this:
Removing this clip wasn't necessary, leave it alone and grab the whole disc out.
Remove like this, easier
Brass thrust washers on both sides of the reverse planetary gear set
Another clip to pop with a flat blade screwdriver.
Reverse planetary gear set and one-way clutch
Drive shell and double sun gear.Note the 2nd brass thrust washer with tabs up
I don't know how it happened, but it probably got worn out then the previous rebuilder grinded the lip off
Pressing out bushings in the double sun gear with a socket. Coincidentally, the mark on the socket is also the same depth for recessing the bushing
Remove that key
Worn!
Forward clutch
Direct/reverse clutch
Good thing I took a picture of these discs on the D/R clutch, I would have never figured out there was an extra one in there unless MarkWard on the forum pointed it out... Shitty previous rebuilder job
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=674438&highlight=
Replacing the bushing in the D/R clutch
Depth
Changing the piston on the D/R clutch. You gotta press to reach/free the clip. I ended up bending the washer that compresses the springs. Make sure it goes down straight under the press.... It took me an hour of work to shape it back straight with the press
New VW piston (note the part number grounded off. Score! )
New spring plate
You break it, you fix it!
2nd gear brake band
1st/reverse apply shell removal, along with spring plate, oil pump and brake piston (all sandwiched)
Someone went in there before...
Empty!!!
Oil pump rings
Replacing the bushings in the oil pump
Small bushing extraction and installation
Driving the big old bushing out with the new one in, then drilled it perpendicularly to insert a rod then drive it all out.
Comparing Reverse brake pistons, old with new ones of different brands
New ones have the ball check valve, the other ones are NLA.
Upon reassembly, don't make the same mistake as I did, do not mount the piston thinking you will fine adjust it later, it won't budge! Instead, mount it with the 1st/reverse apply shell to make sure the ball check valve lines up. I didn't want to ruin the piston so I opened up the hole larger in the shell
Different frictions in the kit, the thin ones go in the forward clutch, the thick ones on the D/R clutch.
Don't fnck up the count!!
I let them soak for 24 hours in transmission fluid
I forgot where this fat wavy washer goes, but it was interesting to notice.
New rings on the shaft
Alright, 6 hours to make that post, see ya! _________________ Silicone Steering Boots and 930 Cv boots for sale in the classifieds.
Syncro transmission upgrade parts in the Classifieds.
Subaru EJ22+UN1 5 speed transmission
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=416343
Syncro http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4...num+gadget
Last edited by ALIKA T3 on Mon Apr 10, 2017 7:43 pm; edited 4 times in total |
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fleet_maintenance Samba Member
Joined: November 01, 2013 Posts: 323 Location: Upstate NY
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Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 10:28 pm Post subject: Re: 090 010 transmission rebuild+ custom oil cooler and problems.... |
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Thanks for taking the time to document. Your post makes me want to buy an auto just to tear into it |
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ALIKA T3 Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2009 Posts: 6316 Location: Honolulu,Hawaii and France
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Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 10:32 pm Post subject: Re: 090 010 transmission rebuild+ custom oil cooler and problems.... |
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fleet_maintenance wrote: |
Thanks for taking the time to document. Your post makes me want to buy an auto just to tear into it |
Thank you !
I have to say, I wanted an automatic just to rebuild it too, that was the last thing for me to learn on a Vanagon
It really is an amazing thing, my GF was very interested in the valve body, it blew her mind, mine too. Mechanical computer. _________________ Silicone Steering Boots and 930 Cv boots for sale in the classifieds.
Syncro transmission upgrade parts in the Classifieds.
Subaru EJ22+UN1 5 speed transmission
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=416343
Syncro http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4...num+gadget |
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ALIKA T3 Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2009 Posts: 6316 Location: Honolulu,Hawaii and France
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kourt Samba Member
Joined: August 13, 2013 Posts: 1922 Location: Austin, TX
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Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 11:26 am Post subject: Re: Automatic transmission rebuild+ custom oil cooler and problems |
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Are you sure the piston rod is seated in the proper pocket on the end of the band? It's easy to get it wrong.
Nice post, BTW.
kourt |
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pablum Samba Member
Joined: December 17, 2015 Posts: 562
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Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 12:41 pm Post subject: Re: Automatic transmission rebuild+ custom oil cooler and problems |
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All's I can say is if that 2nd gear break band adjustment pin is too far in there's a fitment problem inside. Either it's not resting properly on the band, the band is cocked, or the piston is... don't know how it could be the piston.
[oh crap I said fitment!] _________________ The wise man learns from history, the fool from experience.
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I see [a cat] in the street and i aim for the pest with my car. -- bluebus86 |
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ALIKA T3 Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2009 Posts: 6316 Location: Honolulu,Hawaii and France
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Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 1:17 pm Post subject: Re: Automatic transmission rebuild+ custom oil cooler and problems |
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Thank you Kourt!
I did tightened by hand the brake band and checked it out before installing the valve body, but I also did back up that screw all the way to re-do it with a torque wrench the first time, I can see it may have slipped out of its location
What is the fonction of that band anyway? It's squeezes a non spinning drum, I don't quite understand....
I'll have to remove the valve body then to double check and torque it to specs before installing the valve body back on. _________________ Silicone Steering Boots and 930 Cv boots for sale in the classifieds.
Syncro transmission upgrade parts in the Classifieds.
Subaru EJ22+UN1 5 speed transmission
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=416343
Syncro http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4...num+gadget |
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ALIKA T3 Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2009 Posts: 6316 Location: Honolulu,Hawaii and France
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Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 1:20 pm Post subject: Re: Automatic transmission rebuild+ custom oil cooler and problems |
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pablum wrote: |
All's I can say is if that 2nd gear break band adjustment pin is too far in there's a fitment problem inside. Either it's not resting properly on the band, the band is cocked, or the piston is... don't know how it could be the piston.
[oh crap I said fitment!] |
Sigh, def will have to take the valve body out to check it out
Do you know its function?
Thanks Pablum _________________ Silicone Steering Boots and 930 Cv boots for sale in the classifieds.
Syncro transmission upgrade parts in the Classifieds.
Subaru EJ22+UN1 5 speed transmission
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=416343
Syncro http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4...num+gadget |
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kourt Samba Member
Joined: August 13, 2013 Posts: 1922 Location: Austin, TX
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ALIKA T3 Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2009 Posts: 6316 Location: Honolulu,Hawaii and France
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MarkWard Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005 Posts: 17012 Location: Retired South Florida
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Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 1:35 pm Post subject: Re: Automatic transmission rebuild+ custom oil cooler and problems |
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2nd gear brake ban holds this drum. It is not splined, but floats on the pump shaft from memory.
The valve body plate looks pretty beat and that is where the "magic" happens. Too bad new plates are not available. That is where the bulk of the valve body wear seems to occur.
Now, some valve bodies had 4 balls others had 5 balls. You will need to determine if that was another mistake by the previous overhauler. Also, the Bentley manual has a pressure chart to help troubleshoot transmission problems.
One last thing I did not see in your excellent write up. You need to pressure test with air the drum packs etc as you rebuild the transmission. The manual shows you were to test with compressed air. It has been many years since I overhauled an automatic. It kicked my ass and it was the last one. It came to me in a box in pieces. I thought I did everything right, but it would not upshift out of second when it was cold. I recall putting in a used valve body because even back then, the hard parts were not available. Best of luck figuring it out. I often learn more when things don't go right the first time. mark _________________ ☮️ |
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pablum Samba Member
Joined: December 17, 2015 Posts: 562
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Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 2:14 pm Post subject: Re: Automatic transmission rebuild+ custom oil cooler and problems |
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ALIKA T3 wrote: |
What is the fonction of that band anyway? It's squeezes a non spinning drum, I don't quite understand....
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Roughly (and pardon my terminology) from SSP8, grabbing the clutch drum of the D+R clutch (and the bell) also grabs the sun gear (of the forward planetary set) which becomes a lever for the next part:
Meanwhile the turbine shaft (attached to that part in the TC I guess?) drives the engaged forward clutch to the ringwheel of the forward planetary set (and thus the 3 planet gears) to the drive shaft (meaning to the wheels.) _________________ The wise man learns from history, the fool from experience.
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I see [a cat] in the street and i aim for the pest with my car. -- bluebus86 |
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pablum Samba Member
Joined: December 17, 2015 Posts: 562
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Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 2:21 pm Post subject: Re: Automatic transmission rebuild+ custom oil cooler and problems |
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ALIKA T3 wrote: |
I get the stopping function, but isn't the apply shell a fixed part in our transmission? The brake band goes around it. |
No the brake band is inside the apply shell and encompasses the drum. Only the ends of the band protrude out the bell to be engaged by the piston/pin.
EDIT: Mark Ward's pic shows the band in the shell... _________________ The wise man learns from history, the fool from experience.
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I see [a cat] in the street and i aim for the pest with my car. -- bluebus86 |
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ALIKA T3 Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2009 Posts: 6316 Location: Honolulu,Hawaii and France
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Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 4:18 pm Post subject: Re: Automatic transmission rebuild+ custom oil cooler and problems |
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Hey guys !
Thank you all for your help
I could have sworn I re installed the brake band outside the apply shell, but maybe it's not possible....now it's function makes sense .
Everything works well besides that, so I'll have to remove the VB definitely.
It is the correct transfer plate, I checked the identification marks when I rebuilt it.
I couldn't check out the second gear brake band with compressed air bc the hole wasn't round and I didn't have time to mess with it. If all is cleaned, new and lubed, I didn't see why I would need to bother with air tests, so I didn't do it.
It would be nice to have plates laser cut again, but the reverse design seems intense... maybe w a scanner it could work? Not my field but if there's demand, I could have it done in France
Aloha all! _________________ Silicone Steering Boots and 930 Cv boots for sale in the classifieds.
Syncro transmission upgrade parts in the Classifieds.
Subaru EJ22+UN1 5 speed transmission
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=416343
Syncro http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4...num+gadget |
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Energy Concepts Samba Member
Joined: March 12, 2007 Posts: 352 Location: Yacolt, WA
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Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 7:52 am Post subject: Re: Automatic transmission rebuild+ custom oil cooler and problems |
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ALIKA T3 wrote: |
Hey guys !
Thank you all for your help
I could have sworn I re installed the brake band outside the apply shell, but maybe it's not possible....now it's function makes sense .
Everything works well besides that, so I'll have to remove the VB definitely.
It is the correct transfer plate, I checked the identification marks when I rebuilt it.
I couldn't check out the second gear brake band with compressed air bc the hole wasn't round and I didn't have time to mess with it. If all is cleaned, new and lubed, I didn't see why I would need to bother with air tests, so I didn't do it.
It would be nice to have plates laser cut again, but the reverse design seems intense... maybe w a scanner it could work? Not my field but if there's demand, I could have it done in France
Aloha all! |
I believe Jim Ellis Atlanta
[email protected]
has the Valve Body's ?
JC... |
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MarkWard Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005 Posts: 17012 Location: Retired South Florida
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Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 8:52 am Post subject: Re: Automatic transmission rebuild+ custom oil cooler and problems |
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I would be surprised if you got the brake band in on the outside of the stamped sheet metal shell. I don't think there is the room. The adjustment bolt is really more of a "stop" than an active part. You set it and forget it. All the action is on the opposite side of the band. Will be interesting to hear what you find. Good luck. mark _________________ ☮️ |
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Gruppe B Samba Member
Joined: January 16, 2007 Posts: 1331
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Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 8:58 am Post subject: Re: Automatic transmission rebuild+ custom oil cooler and problems |
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Energy Concepts wrote: |
ALIKA T3 wrote: |
Hey guys !
Thank you all for your help
I could have sworn I re installed the brake band outside the apply shell, but maybe it's not possible....now it's function makes sense .
Everything works well besides that, so I'll have to remove the VB definitely.
It is the correct transfer plate, I checked the identification marks when I rebuilt it.
I couldn't check out the second gear brake band with compressed air bc the hole wasn't round and I didn't have time to mess with it. If all is cleaned, new and lubed, I didn't see why I would need to bother with air tests, so I didn't do it.
It would be nice to have plates laser cut again, but the reverse design seems intense... maybe w a scanner it could work? Not my field but if there's demand, I could have it done in France
Aloha all! |
I believe Jim Ellis Atlanta
[email protected]
has the Valve Body's ?
JC... |
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=667234&highlight=
I ordered mine from jimellis and am waiting for it to arrive from Germany..
Get it before its sold out and gone. $250! |
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MarkWard Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005 Posts: 17012 Location: Retired South Florida
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Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 9:42 am Post subject: Re: Automatic transmission rebuild+ custom oil cooler and problems |
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One thought about the little balls. Look at pages 38.27 and 38.28 in the manual. There was a change in production. I thought it was the number of balls, but it is also the size of the balls. You need to look at the notches in the separation plate to know which version you have. The I assume early version had 5 balls equal size. The later had 6 balls. 5 were six mm and the sixth was 3mm. Hope that helps some too.
Looking at your pictures above, your notches don't seem to match the manual, but it is a little hard to tell. I wonder if the valve body is from something else? _________________ ☮️ |
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ALIKA T3 Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2009 Posts: 6316 Location: Honolulu,Hawaii and France
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Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 11:03 am Post subject: Re: Automatic transmission rebuild+ custom oil cooler and problems |
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Thank you Gruppe B!
Yeah, I might bite the bullet and do it, although I don't really want to, it sucks to buy a whole thing just for the plate. I have 2 other spare transmissions, although one has a deeper governor cover, one is a NG for sure like the one I rebuilt. I don't know what valve body they have.
MarkWard wrote: |
One thought about the little balls. Look at pages 38.27 and 38.28 in the manual. There was a change in production. I thought it was the number of balls, but it is also the size of the balls. You need to look at the notches in the separation plate to know which version you have. The I assume early version had 5 balls equal size. The later had 6 balls. 5 were six mm and the sixth was 3mm. Hope that helps some too.
Thank you Mark, I did, I have the FFB valve body (bolted-on id tag if that can be trusted), and the notches matched the Bentley, one of the notch is actually not really an identifying notch, so I doesn't match exactly the manual picture.It is the version with the small 3mm ball, and 5 other bigger balls.It is shifting fine and crisp once driving, the Reverse is a little aggressive though, it does a "thump!" noise when engaged. I will try to tackle the job to check out the brake band next week, this week end is gonna be busy already, and I will report back so we know what we are talking about. The band out of place makes the most sense for now, a new valve body would be extra icing on top of the cake
Looking at your pictures above, your notches don't seem to match the manual, but it is a little hard to tell. I wonder if the valve body is from something else? |
Have a great day amigos ! _________________ Silicone Steering Boots and 930 Cv boots for sale in the classifieds.
Syncro transmission upgrade parts in the Classifieds.
Subaru EJ22+UN1 5 speed transmission
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=416343
Syncro http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4...num+gadget |
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wesitarz Samba Member
Joined: August 20, 2012 Posts: 1477 Location: Victoria,B.C.Canada
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Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 1:46 pm Post subject: Re: Automatic transmission rebuild+ custom oil cooler and problems |
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I've been thinking of adding a trans temp sender inline off the trans to the cooler line. I had noted that the outlet is the bottom fitting and the inlet/return is the top fitting.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0
So the bottom would be Hot and the top would be cool,which is opposite to your setup.No? |
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