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modok Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009 Posts: 26730 Location: Colorado Springs
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Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 12:07 am Post subject: AA pistons RINGS REALLY BAD caution! |
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I think MOST of you already know, but just in case....
Brand new set of AA thickwall 92B
The top ring appears to be made of mild steel, dead soft mild steel.
You bend it a little and it does not spring back. I've never seen that before, ever, on any kind of engine. it's like it's made of play dough.
The thickness isn't consistent, it has burrs at the gap that are scraping up the cylinder.
The second ring is no good too, the face profile is not right, one spot is is a few degrees tapered the next inch it is not, so I can't tell if they were going for straight or tapered....... but too rough and screwy to be right in any case.
Oil ring.....might be ok.
Also, new changes. The thickwall 92 cylinder is now 112.5 height instead of 114, and the pistons are way too tight! half thou clearance on a slipper skirt is not going to work.
The other two sets I bought had what appeared to be grant rings in a plain white box, and didn't have any mortal problems.
If someone tried to run this..........it would not work. no way.
There is no date code I can see. They did a lot right too, cylinders look better than ever, I'm pleased with the pistons, so I got what I wanted.
Beware! |
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UK Luke 72 Samba Member
Joined: September 07, 2011 Posts: 2866 Location: Little Britain
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esde Samba Member
Joined: October 20, 2007 Posts: 5911 Location: central rust belt
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Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 3:30 am Post subject: Re: AA pistons RINGS REALLY BAD caution! |
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So the rings came in a separate box? Every set of AA that I've ever had my hands on had the rings installed on the pistons when I received them. _________________ modok wrote:
Bent cranks are silent but gather no moss. I mean, ah, something like that. |
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rockurob Samba Member
Joined: August 23, 2009 Posts: 358 Location: Okla City, Oklahoma
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williamM Samba Member
Joined: August 07, 2008 Posts: 4333 Location: southwest Arizona
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Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 6:53 am Post subject: Re: AA pistons RINGS REALLY BAD caution! |
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Thanks for the heads up- ( and I blamed the proud owners shitty air cleaner for the last set of smokies) _________________ some days I get up and just sit and think. Some days I just sit.
opinion untempered by fact is ignorance.
Don't step in any! |
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gt1953 Samba Member
Joined: May 08, 2002 Posts: 13837 Location: White Mountains Arizona
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Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 6:53 am Post subject: Re: AA pistons RINGS REALLY BAD caution! |
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Hmm I wonder if the 85.5 rings are like that as I will be making a purchase in the near future. Hopefully some engine builder will chime in. _________________ Volkswagen: We tune what we drive.
Numbers Matching VW's are getting harder to find. Source out the most Stock vehicle and keep that way. You will be glad you did.
72 type 1
72 Squareback
({59 Euro bug, 62, 63, 67, 68, 69, 73 type ones 68 & 69 type two, 68 Ghia all sold}) |
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[email protected] Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2002 Posts: 12785 Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
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Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 7:05 am Post subject: Re: AA pistons RINGS REALLY BAD caution! |
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If you want the best round file the rings, and order a set of Deves with the P&Cs. It's still a bargain at under $250 for the pair. _________________ It's just advice, do whatever you want with it!
Please do NOT send me Private Messages through the Samba PM System (I will not see them). Send me an e-mail to john at aircooled dot net
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Brian_e Samba Member
Joined: July 28, 2009 Posts: 3213 Location: Rapid City, SD
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Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 7:36 am Post subject: Re: AA pistons RINGS REALLY BAD caution! |
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I had two sets of 92 thick wall B's last year that were also too tight. Same thing .0005" clearance. I sent mine back to AA and they honed them larger for me no problem. I have also never got a set with the ring's packaged separate. Mine have always been mounted on the pistons.
Strange.
My last 3 or 4 sets of 94's have measured really good.
Brian |
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mark tucker Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2009 Posts: 23937 Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
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Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 7:48 am Post subject: Re: AA pistons RINGS REALLY BAD caution! |
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total seal. I always deburr the gaps weather over sized or std..Ive seen rings that bend,but these probably shouldent..might need to heatreet them and the clearance of hyper you tech tick are closer. have you ever seen a gaulded hyper piston? I dont know about these china pistons but the early hyper KB pistons had a lot of silly cone pebbels in them and didnt stick to squat. Ive seen them with hot spots on the skirt's with no gaulding of any kind. but that comes at a cost. they do run a lot hotter than forged and even std cast and thus require more ring gap. and...there more prone to cracking so...it's a trade off,more scuff resistance and quieter running from tighter clearances or...pistons that wear out or gauld or noisey forged pistons....well I dont mind a little extra clearance on pistons, and if you do it all right that can be tightened up a bit(but may be hard to do with these type engines). I have a set of old aa 92 B pistions that have been creamic coated& dfl coated.but they have been on the shelf for years, I wonder how the ceramic thermal barrier affects the hyper pistons....probably be able to tighten up the ring gaps and clearance....but pin clearance may need opening up a tenth or so...depending on what it is now. mahles new pin bores are not round there trumpit shaped to match the pin at high stress situations so they fit best when loaded...somany things go into things you cant really see with the eye. but you have to do what you can with this shit we get for parts or they end up at the swap meats... trade hot dog for those pistons? if your paying 200+ for a set of 4 cylinder rings somethen is rong. |
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Cusser Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006 Posts: 31231 Location: Hot Arizona
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Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 8:13 am Post subject: Re: AA pistons RINGS REALLY BAD caution! |
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gt1953 wrote: |
Hmm I wonder if the 85.5 rings are like that as I will be making a purchase in the near future. Hopefully some engine builder will chime in. |
gt1953 - I used 85.5mm Moresa pistons and cylinders (OEM for VW of Mexico) from CB in my engine; the rings supplied with those were Hasting made-in-USA. _________________ 1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297 |
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rockurob Samba Member
Joined: August 23, 2009 Posts: 358 Location: Okla City, Oklahoma
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Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 10:11 am Post subject: Re: AA pistons RINGS REALLY BAD caution! |
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rockurob wrote: |
Building an engine right now .... 1835
AA....92 A thick wall 94 on top/92 bottom/base
Jugs are 114 mm |
just took inventory and inspected my AA 90.5B stroker P&C
set....same issue as Modok posted .... the top ring does not
keep its tension .... using the expander tool to install/remove
... after being expanded ... they do not spring back ....
also noticed the AA 90.5B slipper skirt piston is stamped
with 90.45 while my Mahle 90.5 B piston is stamped with 90.43
and the AA top ring is not dark iron/black color, but silver and does
not have the compression bevel
so same issues with the AA90.5B strokers on the rings
My AA90.5 stroker Jugs are 112.5 mm _________________ 70's....Owner "Der Bug Shoppe" Okla. City
70 Baja Street Rod Project
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/1644125.jpg
Drag Buggy project:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/1726674.jpg
61 Rag Project:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=1188580 |
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jason Samba Member
Joined: August 07, 2002 Posts: 3443 Location: Garage
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Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 11:32 am Post subject: Re: AA pistons RINGS REALLY BAD caution! |
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Did they also change the pin height on the pistons? |
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mark tucker Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2009 Posts: 23937 Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
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Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 2:54 pm Post subject: Re: AA pistons RINGS REALLY BAD caution! |
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somebody might want to contact AA and let them know they have a issue then start a petition so we all can add to it so they will do somethen.... i havent a clue how my aa rings are I got total seals for them... |
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modok Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009 Posts: 26730 Location: Colorado Springs
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Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 5:07 pm Post subject: Re: AA pistons RINGS REALLY BAD caution! |
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jason wrote: |
Did they also change the pin height on the pistons? |
no, still 35mm
I just been trying to get the word out for years that the thickwall sets were 114 case to head, because you would not expect that, and now they have gone to 112.5 like stock.
Rings were on pistons.
I know the rings were separate on the FIRST set I bought because they are still in the box, as I didn't use them, but it was a while ago and I may have fooled myself. The first set also had the top two fins siamese, and now they are 3 separate fins. AA has been at this a long time now, time flies.
I was thinking all day what the minimum clearance should be on these slipper skirt pistons, and what I decided was .002 bottom, .007 just under oil ring, so I will need to hone them out at least .0015 larger, and I will probably shoot for .002" over 92 bore size.
Last edited by modok on Mon Apr 24, 2017 5:32 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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modok Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009 Posts: 26730 Location: Colorado Springs
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Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 5:12 pm Post subject: Re: AA pistons RINGS REALLY BAD caution! |
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I was planning to hone them and use different rings all along,...... most already know that they are not to be trusted, but the issues are just just far worse than ever and I though you might like to know that. |
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Matthew Samba Member
Joined: January 29, 2004 Posts: 1760 Location: Eastern Tennessee
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Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 3:28 pm Post subject: Re: AA pistons RINGS REALLY BAD caution! |
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Well darn, those rings meet the description of what came on my AA 90.5B slipper skirt set. I disassembled and checked gaps (all in spec), checked piston balance (w/ in .5 g), washed the cylinders in hot soapy water until squeaky clean and lightly oiled cylinders. I did think the top ring looked rather large when re-installed on the pistons.
I guess I need rings now. What rings will play well with this set? _________________ 1965 Beetle sedan
Click to view image |
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modok Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009 Posts: 26730 Location: Colorado Springs
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Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 4:37 pm Post subject: Re: AA pistons RINGS REALLY BAD caution! |
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Grant rings. Although they are cheap, and there is nothing at all special about them, they do seem to perform well for everybody.
I even put boost on them
I have great success with NPR chrome rings also, but to seat fast the cylinders have to be honed in a certain way.
total seal sells a moly faced ring for the 92 size also, which I think would do well in these thicwall sets IF good R2c or better airfilters are uised, but yet again, they have to be honed a certain way to make it worthwhile.
Deves rings perform great but most find they wear out per-maturely, so they are perfect for the weeke3nd thrill ride but not what you want for offroad or daily street use. |
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Matthew Samba Member
Joined: January 29, 2004 Posts: 1760 Location: Eastern Tennessee
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Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 6:23 pm Post subject: Re: AA pistons RINGS REALLY BAD caution! |
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Thanks Modok. I think i'll give the Grant rings a try. _________________ 1965 Beetle sedan
Click to view image |
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Dauz Samba Member
Joined: January 05, 2010 Posts: 1786
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Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 9:49 pm Post subject: Re: AA pistons RINGS REALLY BAD caution! |
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I'm in the market for some new barrels. Would you recommend the AA's over Mahle 94s? Standard length.. |
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modok Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009 Posts: 26730 Location: Colorado Springs
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Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:01 pm Post subject: Re: AA pistons RINGS REALLY BAD caution! |
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The mahle barrels are about .020" thicker under the head stud reliefs and harder material, so perhaps they are better in those respects, although neither of them is terribly important.
I HAVE HEARD some new mahle sets come with the same cylidners as AA, so maybe it's all in the past
I don't build a large number of VW engines but I do check everything I do build very carefully.
BTW the crown thickness of the AA 92b piston is .250", so I think they could stand a .060 dish, while mahle is much thinner, .180 if I recall, and I don't like to dish those more than .030-.040 |
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