Welding: learning how to...

[Terry Kay]

If I knew full well that my suspension components were going to need welding, I wouldn't consider anything "Just" to get the job done.
I'd buy a unit that is 4 time of what I need.
I know that I wouldn't have any problems getting the job done easy, simple, better than factory, and in a prudent fashion.

I have enough common sense to know that Harbor Freight tools are not going to get the job done right--or easy, or without bitching to myself about the garbage that they sell.

I've been into that store -- Once--
It's a junkyard of imported crap.
I made an immediate U-Turn, laughing my way out the door.

There are No, zero shortcuts to quality.

" Hello Wall "
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T.K.

[epowell]

OK, these next 2 short test beads may not look like much but the difference being that these were done with slower wire feed speeds. Previously I could not even get anything to even remotely look like a bead without having the wire speed at 5.5. These 2 fotos were done at wire speed 4. To me they look similar to my 5.5 speed beads, but maybe with the slower wire speed the penetration was better? Can you guys tell? One thing for sure is that with the slower wire speed - when I'm finished making the bead the workpiece is glowing red hot for quite some time after. The difference is that I tried my best to do 2 things: 1) observe the puddle and keep the wire connected to it, 2) maintain a 10mm distance from puddle at all times.

So that was done at wire speed 4.

These next 2 fotos were done at speed 3!

Finally I tried speed 2 and 2.5 but could not maintain constant arc at this slow speed. I don't know if it is a FEED ISSUE or not.

I am using 0.9mm size wire which is the max. wire size for this machine. The min. wire size I can use is 0.6mm. I am thinking that a thinner wire can improve my welds because with a thinner wire the arc would be maintained just as well but less metal will be deposited. So since the main problem I have now is low penetration and too much deposited metal, it would make sense that thinner wire would help, no?
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www.edwardpowell.com

[Terry Kay]

Not enough heat, too much wire speed, you're moving too fast, you're moving too slow, wrong gooseneck angle to the work.

All the same reasons---

I have some more welding to do today--

I'll do some backing off of the amps, crank up the wire speed, and not move the gooseneck on the Hobart.

I'm using 0.30 wire.
That converts to .8mm wire in the EU.
Minimum for what you plan on doing.
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T.K.

[Terry Kay]

The first number is the amps, the second is the speed
# 10 amp setting wasn't worth hitting the trigger

Not much better on the way up with the amperage setting--
You can clearly see that by the time I got to 100 amps on the 3/16's plate and faster on the wire, it was laying down better, and getting some penetration.
Bigger amps, higher wire speed is the answer here.
Nothing else.

This eye hook & plate I had to make today to pick up a 1000 lbs 5'16's T-1 steel plate for the floor of a gravel trailer tomorrow and drop it in over the top with a deck crane I'm using, so I can weld the floor into the trailer.
The beads look the same on both sides.
It gets welded to the center of the floor plate--pick the plate up, and lower it into the trailer.
140 amps with the speed not quite all the way open.

The problems with the inexpensive Wal Mart welder is it doesn't produce enough amps--period.

Bigger amps, higher wire speed is the answer here.

Nothing else---

That welder you have isn't putting out enough juice to weld with.
Not to be welding suspension parts in with it anyway--ship it back, & get an inexpensive stick welder.
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T.K.

[djkeev]

That right there is a beautiful weld!!

Dave
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[crazyvwvanman]

No big surprise that a more powerful machine is needed for heavier material. The question for Ed is whether HIS machine can somehow do an adequate job on HIS size material.

Mark

[epowell]

[Terry Kay]

Thanks Dave, it is like riding a bicycle, you never forget the skill.

I had 3 of these weld on hooks for lifting dump gates & floors Dave.

How in the heck did I misplace them I have no idea.

Folks say that the welds should sound like frying bacon.
Great picture to paint.
Cooking with a high flame would be even better for good penetration.

I am really worried about this pending disaster in eastern EU, with that lower suspension arm repair.

Boy, I can imagine what kind of Bang that is going to make when the weld fails.
He wants to run prior to crawling, or walking.
When I was in welding school back in 66, torches were first to learn how to pool & fill the steel.
The shop had an acetylene generator.
Wow, if OSHA was around then!!!

It was amazing how that worked, and how the flame moved the iron.
Then after that was mastered, we moved onto a DC arc welder.

More neat stuff.

At the time there wasn't such a thing as Mig or Tig welding.

Everybody that got there was on there own from that point.

I think he should get an arc welder first, it would / could be less expensive, and apply to what he has on his mind.
Easier to get a handle on that too, then once he had that mastered then move on up to a mig setup.

My thinking anyway.
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T.K.

[epowell]

[Abscate]

[Terry Kay]

The area where the weld is going must be clean.
The ground area must be spotless.

I don't ground the work.
I ground the welding table so I can move the work around to weld easier.

Boy, as I lowered amps & speed it was exactly like watching a pigeon taking a dump right in front of me.

No getting around it.

If you had a bad ground at the work, no spark, or real erratic spark.
You mentioned your making bacon.

That wouldn't happen with a poor ground.

The other issue here is that you are welding longer than 1 minute on that weld not applicating smootly.

The duty cycle is dropping off at the end of the weld, and not coming back till the transformer cools down.
1 minute isn't enough to be welding.

Tie into the fuse box.
I am pretty sure the results are going to be the same.
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T.K.

[Terry Kay]

<<That Millennial intern you hired is doing nice work>>

I grabbed an illegal Hungarian immigrant kid looking for lunch money.

Good one--
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T.K.

[Terry Kay]

<<TIG?>>

No Ed.

The same 120 volt Hobart 140 Mig welder I've been telling you about.

It is a great welding machine.
A Miller would weld the same way.

This has been a good investment.

I have been suggesting you getting an easy to use stick welder to learn on.
Take a class so you don't have to make any investment.
Take a welding class to learn how to gas weld.
Once you master either of the above, you'll be able to use anything with some sort of proficiency.

I think there is something wrong with the machine you have, or it's way beyond that flex core wires capacity.
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T.K.

[61Scout]

Ed, watch this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4RrDeUKcH4

See how he controls the puddle? Nice and steady, consistent angle and speed. This is what you should be seeing through the lens.

As far as advancing on your van project, calling in a pro to do the repair might be the easiest and fastest route to take at this stage. Abandoning the aluminum and epoxy repair was the right choice. And I applaud you for buying a welder and wanting to learn a new skill. But TK does have a point in saying that the quality of the weld on the frame repair needs to be of top-notch structural integrity. If the welding job was purely cosmetic I'd say go for it. But in this case, the van and this particular repair is going to require some experienced hands. This is not to say you won't gain enough welding skill to do the job over time, but you're looking many more hours holding that gun and laying down a mile of good beads. Assuming you have another job to do, the van project could fall behind by several months while you gain the necessary skills to properly make this frame repair.

I agree with the suggestions on buying a higher quality welder. I also have the Hobart 140. I use a .030 wire and run the bottle with an argon mix. It's an excellent machine, though total set up cost once I bought the welder, bottle, helmet, gloves, apron, and so forth ran about $1000. My set up would be considered entry level by guys who weld for a living. For automotive work, it's just about perfect for 98% of jobs. I also own an old Lincoln tombstone, but it rarely sees any use unless I'm doing frame repair work on a trailer or one of my Scouts.

Welding is a lot like riding a bike, sailing, skiing or making love. There's a great deal of "feel" involved. It's rare for someone to be awesome at welding right out of the gate. An experienced welder can literally weld with their eyes closed... all by feel. I'm not a great welder by any means, but I can stick two pieces of metal together and feel confident they won't come apart. Guys like Sodo, TK and others here are clearly at the professional level. But I guarantee that didn't happen overnight. Do yourself a favor and cut yourself some slack. Hire this job out to a pro and get moving forward on the van project. Keep practicing your welding and the next time your van needs a structural repair you'll be ready.

-Kevin
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1986 Westfalia Weekender Wolfsburg, RJE 2.3
1985 Tin Top, Subie 2.2 + 5MT
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Remove the rear wheel bearing housing without messing with the big 46mm nut: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=679507&highlight=

-Nec Spe, Nec Metu

[ledogboy]

Bravo, Kevin! Excellent advice.
_________________
1986 Westy Weekender
Now a full camper
1.8t Syncro conversion
Some people call him Maurice...

[bluebus86]

I would think the house wires are not an issue anymore with the fat extension cords on the second circuit. I recall you measured a very small drop at the welder when plugged in as discribed, right??? if so then there is nothing to gang by better wires as far as the welder is concerned.

YES ground of the weld part is critical, clean and firm clamp of ground wire is important. make that very important!!! it might be worth looking inside the welder to assure that ground wire is tightly secured on the supply end, a loose connection there will cause all sorts of problems, so take a look inside welder, unplugged of course, check tightness and cleanliness of the line wires (input wires) on their terminals, check the afore mentioned ground wire too.

heres a test, with thinmetal like the van metal, try to weld on a piece like that, see if you can burn thru the sheet. I recall learning to weld, and having two problems, failure to penetrate, like you have going on, and sometimes too much heat and Id melt thru my practice sheet of metal. I noticed you have not had a single burn thru yet, maybe the sheet is too thick, but I would think you should be able to burn thru the autobody thickness sheet metal with improper technique, yet I only see failure to pentrate. is the machine capable burning a hole thru sheetmetal? Not that that is what is wanted for an end result, but it would give use an idea of how much heat that welder can put out.

if the welder is incapable of making a hole thru a thin sheet, that makes me wonder if it has a enough umph to get good penatration even when correctly operated. anyway that is my observation verseswhen I was learning, half the time Id blow theu the sheet metal, half the time failure to penetrate, eventually I found the happy medium between the two extremes.

so can you blow a hole thru autobody gague sheet?

good luck, hope the rain stops till after the roof is done.
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[epowell]

@ Bluebus

Interesting that you suspect that the house wiring is not the issue at all...
...also, yes I will now go and check the ground cable inside the machine.
- - - I will also go an see if I can burn thru some 1mm sheet metal. If I can not burn thru sheet metal then I think I have good grounds to return the machine and get my money back. For an extra $300 there is a seemingly very good MIG machine (Czech made).

I know I'm no genius but I also don't think I'm a complete fool > and to be honest I am certain there MUST be an "issue" somewhere. 90V is not wimpy and youtube guys with the same machine are burning thru 3mm metal all the time.

You are completely right that the ISSUE is lack of heat - PERIOD. Visibility, travel speed, distance from work piece, watching the puddle, --- yes most of my test pieces get messed up but some of them I was doing really well, but still, NO penetration.

---

OK, I'll go test those things and report back. Thanks for the support.
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www.edwardpowell.com

[Terry Kay]

90 amps, not volts--

At 90 amps you should be able to get them beads laying pretty flat, and have decent penetration.
Slow the wire speed down a little.
See what happens.

If them welds continuously look like pigeon droppings, the welder isn't right.
No, not you, the machine.
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T.K.

[epowell]

@ Bluebus

OK, I did those things:
1) opened the machine and don't see anything too weird - ground cables good. Except from the main ground cable there was an off-shoot tiny little wire going to the circuit board (but that's probably normal)

2) BURN-THRU tests... first 2 fotos are front and back side of 0.7mm sheet metal [REMEMBER THIS MACHINE IS SUPPOSED TO BE RATED AS MIN. 1.6MM!!!!] ...anyway it was not so difficult to burn thru the 0.7mm in about 10 second blasting one spot, wire speed 5.

Next 2 fotos are of 1mm thick sheet metal which is about body panel thickness or even thinner (?)... this did burn thru (wire speed 5), but not really really easily (and not holes). I held the gun at the same spot for 10 or 15 seconds, and this is the result. Burn thru yes, but not easily burned thru, and no holes.

I am totally inexperienced and only have videos to compare to but this seems to me to be mega underpowered >>>> or am I wrong? Is this normal?

....or grounds to get my money back?

What I can say is that I could be doing my normal testing on this 1mm thick sheet metal, and I would never burn thru unless I really tried to burn thru... a burn thru would not happen by accident. And this machine is rated for min. 1.6mm Something is wrong with the machine, no?
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www.edwardpowell.com

[Terry Kay]

If the machine is rated for just 1.6 mm, how heavy is the control arm?

I think you're stretching it's capacity on that.

In buying machinery, always get bigger, & more than you need.
You can throttle back to get the work done right, it's impossible to make an underpowered machine work on heavier metal.
You have big limitations.
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T.K.