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Whaanga
Samba Member
Joined: May 07, 2016
Posts: 627
Location: Rochester, NY
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 Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:26 pm Post subject: Correct cooling Fan? |
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I have a 73 bus with a transplanted
914 engine. The W engine code indicate it's from 70-71.
The fan shroud has a GE number which
I think is from 78.
I want to replace my cooling fan - how do I decipher which fan I should use?
Here is a photo of the fan currently in the engine - including two missing blades.
Here is the GE number on the fan shroud
Here is seen the W code indicating a 914 engine. Also, before anyone suggests I replace the worn manifold boots? I did this about a year ago.
Any help regarding which type of fan I should look for is much appreciated.
Thank You (as always) |
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Wildthings
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Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50348
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| Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:45 pm Post subject: Re: Correct cooling Fan? |
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The fans are all interchangeable unless you are running the air pump found on '73 and '74 buses. In that case only the later fans with the flat center will do.
There are two different styles fasteners used depending on the shape of the center of the fan. Not sure how interchangeable the fasteners are.
You need to replace those cracked manifold boots before you kill your valves. If the tops of the boots are bad the bottoms are probably worse. They are a common Type 1 dual port part. |
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Whaanga
Samba Member
Joined: May 07, 2016
Posts: 627
Location: Rochester, NY
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| Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:56 pm Post subject: Re: Correct cooling Fan? |
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Thanks Wildthings,
I don't have the air pump you mention so looks like I can use the 'standard' type 4 cooling fan. Per your note about the manifold boots - I mentioned in my
post that I replaced those boots just after I got the bus a year ago. At some point I'll loose the single carb and replace with doubles. |
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airschooled
Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012
Posts: 12722
Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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| Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 10:42 pm Post subject: Re: Correct cooling Fan? |
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| Whaanga wrote: |
| I mentioned in my post that I replaced those boots just after I got the bus a year ago. |
Crap parts don't care how much work you do. Your boots are cracked, and you should replace them before you harm your cylinder heads.
The orange EMPI boots lasted me about a year each. The red IAP boots lasted a little less. The black NAPA boots lasted about eighteen months each.
Robbie
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lil-jinx
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Joined: August 14, 2013
Posts: 1109
Location: New Brunswick,Canada
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Whaanga
Samba Member
Joined: May 07, 2016
Posts: 627
Location: Rochester, NY
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| Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 3:54 am Post subject: Re: Correct cooling Fan? |
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| Thanks Robbie- I replaced the cracked black boots with the orange ones recommend by Bus Daddy. I inspected them this morning and there are no signs of cracking or drying out - thanks for the advice. The engine is coming out in a couple of weeks so would be a good time to replace the boots then. |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50348
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| Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 4:05 am Post subject: Re: Correct cooling Fan? |
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| I should add that fans from different applications have different styles of timing marks. Before installing a replacement fan you need to make sure it has the correct timing marks for a bus. Not a big deal to make a new mark if necessary, Ratwell.com covers this very well. |
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Whaanga
Samba Member
Joined: May 07, 2016
Posts: 627
Location: Rochester, NY
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| Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 6:19 am Post subject: Re: Correct cooling Fan? |
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So the fan itself is interchangable but the timing marks may have to be redone. At this point I cannot figure TDC because of the hybrid engine/fan shroud combo. I have an appointment with Colin a coiuple of weeks after I do this work and one of the planned tasks is to ID TDC and get the timing marks correct.
I had a pro shop do a tune up and valve adjustment last summer since I wanted this to be done right given my new-bee status so it's currently running well. I don't take long trips so may have only put ~ 1000 miles on the bus in the past year. |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50348
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| Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 8:48 am Post subject: Re: Correct cooling Fan? |
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| Putting a new timing mark on is easy, just requires a ruler or tape measure, a triangular file, and reading Ratwell.com |
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Yarkle
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Posts: 1218
Location: the Hills of Western Maine
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williamM
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Joined: August 07, 2008
Posts: 4333
Location: southwest Arizona
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| Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:11 am Post subject: Re: Correct cooling Fan? |
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Your pulley from the broken fan can be put on the new fan- The TDC mark on the pulley should line up- roughly with the roll pin in the hub.[img]
[/img]
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50348
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| Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:26 am Post subject: Re: Correct cooling Fan? |
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| williamM wrote: |
Your pulley from the broken fan can be put on the new fan- The TDC mark on the pulley should line up- roughly with the roll pin in the hub.[img]
[/img] |
He said his old pulley is missing the bus timing mark, plus the pulley is ballanced as part of the pulley/fan assembly so moving it from one fan to another might throw the assembly out of balance.
This is all probably a mute point anyway as his replacement fan will likely have the bus timing mark from the get go, as most but not all '74 and later fans did. |
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williamM
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Joined: August 07, 2008
Posts: 4333
Location: southwest Arizona
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| Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:36 am Post subject: Re: Correct cooling Fan? |
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Agree- and all of my fans had the Porsche timing marks on them but I have no reference to porsche pulleys- if they have the "v" stamped in them or not.
From assembly weights on pulleys I have- I doubt the factory did anything but balance each component - then just put them together.- Got nothing to back that up, but their balance weights in the pulley seem pretty solid-- maybe some old factory worker or historian can chime in here.
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some days I get up and just sit and think. Some days I just sit.
opinion untempered by fact is ignorance.
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oscarsnapkin
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Joined: October 22, 2013
Posts: 558
Location: Bucks County, PA
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| Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 3:58 pm Post subject: Re: Correct cooling Fan? |
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| williamM wrote: |
| From assembly weights on pulleys I have- I doubt the factory did anything but balance each component - then just put them together.- Got nothing to back that up, but their balance weights in the pulley seem pretty solid-- maybe some old factory worker or historian can chime in here. |
I was going to start a thread about this very topic. What is involved with reassembling a fan? I took mine apart to clean and a day or so later came across the advice to never take the fan apart since it is near impossible to put back together correctly. Meanwhile, the fan that I'm using was described by Colin as a POS. I would like to put my original and much nicer fan back on the engine but have been scared off by samba posts. What's involved with putting the fan together and having it correctly balanced?
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williamM
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Joined: August 07, 2008
Posts: 4333
Location: southwest Arizona
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| Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 8:26 pm Post subject: Re: Correct cooling Fan? |
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follow the picture- the di-cast fan has a roll pin to aline it to the crank- put the TDC mark --the little ( "v" )in line with that : then bolt it together. The Porsche marks will be to the right of that set up looking from the face of the fan.
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Don't step in any!
Last edited by williamM on Thu Apr 27, 2017 9:23 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Whaanga
Samba Member
Joined: May 07, 2016
Posts: 627
Location: Rochester, NY
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| Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 9:13 pm Post subject: Re: Correct cooling Fan? |
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Thanks for some interesting and informative comments. There are always new things to learn.
Again, with my new-bee status I don't have experience with tuning the engine in terms of dwell, using a light, adjusting the valves, etc. Since these procedures are so important to good maintence, I want to not only put the tuning marks in the right place, I want to understand the movement of the engine/pistons/crankshaft.
Again, thanks for chiming in. |
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williamM
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Joined: August 07, 2008
Posts: 4333
Location: southwest Arizona
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| Posted: Wed May 03, 2017 6:30 pm Post subject: Re: Correct cooling Fan? |
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First find TDC- either by the "rock point" of the opposite valves, or the coil of rope in the spark plug hole, or the camera or mirror and flash light-- (Ya I know- we are some what "shade tree here".
Next put the "0" of the timing scale from the area of the fan to read there correctly- factory is surprisingly accurate.
Now you have a reference point to find the 28* full advance everybodys recommending- (no Vac assist please.)
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some days I get up and just sit and think. Some days I just sit.
opinion untempered by fact is ignorance.
Don't step in any! |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21518
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Wed May 03, 2017 6:49 pm Post subject: Re: Correct cooling Fan? |
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| oscarsnapkin wrote: |
| williamM wrote: |
| From assembly weights on pulleys I have- I doubt the factory did anything but balance each component - then just put them together.- Got nothing to back that up, but their balance weights in the pulley seem pretty solid-- maybe some old factory worker or historian can chime in here. |
I was going to start a thread about this very topic. What is involved with reassembling a fan? I took mine apart to clean and a day or so later came across the advice to never take the fan apart since it is near impossible to put back together correctly. Meanwhile, the fan that I'm using was described by Colin as a POS. I would like to put my original and much nicer fan back on the engine but have been scared off by samba posts. What's involved with putting the fan together and having it correctly balanced? |
I have been .eaning to post a "how to" over in the 411-412 forum. I have three that need to be re-aligned.
I have done it several ways....all succesful.
One used kind of an elaborate jig board.....my first couple I did like this. Too much work.
The others I have done on a live center on a mount with a dial indicator. Works well.
If you uappen to have a spare engine case, a set of workable main bearings and a spare crank.....you can slather the mains with heavy grease, torque it together and clamp it to a workbench. Bolt on the fan hub and fan.....mount the dial indicator and get to work.
Its not "hard".....but its TEDIOUS. You have to tighten the bolts about 4/5ths......and make adjustments by pulling the dial indicator probe out lf contact....making light taps....checking.....adjusting.....checking....adjusting.
And.....in reality....all of the fan castings themselves have "some" runnout. So you have to map the fan and mark it with sharpie so you know what is "normal".
Then you start on the pulley itself.....and set it to be dead centered regardless of how much radial runout the actual fan blade castkng has. Ray |
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busdaddy
Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 51144
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Wed May 03, 2017 6:59 pm Post subject: Re: Correct cooling Fan? |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
| oscarsnapkin wrote: |
| williamM wrote: |
| From assembly weights on pulleys I have- I doubt the factory did anything but balance each component - then just put them together.- Got nothing to back that up, but their balance weights in the pulley seem pretty solid-- maybe some old factory worker or historian can chime in here. |
I was going to start a thread about this very topic. What is involved with reassembling a fan? I took mine apart to clean and a day or so later came across the advice to never take the fan apart since it is near impossible to put back together correctly. Meanwhile, the fan that I'm using was described by Colin as a POS. I would like to put my original and much nicer fan back on the engine but have been scared off by samba posts. What's involved with putting the fan together and having it correctly balanced? |
I have been .eaning to post a "how to" over in the 411-412 forum. I have three that need to be re-aligned.
I have done it several ways....all succesful.
One used kind of an elaborate jig board.....my first couple I did like this. Too much work.
The others I have done on a live center on a mount with a dial indicator. Works well.
If you uappen to have a spare engine case, a set of workable main bearings and a spare crank.....you can slather the mains with heavy grease, torque it together and clamp it to a workbench. Bolt on the fan hub and fan.....mount the dial indicator and get to work.
Its not "hard".....but its TEDIOUS. You have to tighten the bolts about 4/5ths......and make adjustments by pulling the dial indicator probe out lf contact....making light taps....checking.....adjusting.....checking....adjusting.
And.....in reality....all of the fan castings themselves have "some" runnout. So you have to map the fan and mark it with sharpie so you know what is "normal".
Then you start on the pulley itself.....and set it to be dead centered regardless of how much radial runout the actual fan blade castkng has. Ray |
I duplicated the end of crank taper on a large steel bar/shaft that I can chuck in the lathe, after that it's the same method as you describe. I use chalk to get it in the ballpark first, tap on the chalked area, wipe off and hold the chalk near it again and again (and again). They rarely run so absolutely true a dial indicator will fully zero, that's the nature of a stamped metal pulley, but you can get it to a very close average with a little patience.
I guess you could do it on the bus with the plugs removed and a helper to operate the starter, but bring a battery charger, a chair and lots of beer because you'll be there a while.
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williamM
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Joined: August 07, 2008
Posts: 4333
Location: southwest Arizona
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| Posted: Thu May 04, 2017 5:44 am Post subject: Re: Correct cooling Fan? |
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Could you do it with the engine at idle and get your "high points" by just contacting the spinning hub with chalk or paint.? Your hub to pulley bolts could be just tight enough to allow movements.
The " on - off" of the hub might be a bit frustrating. Not to many shops have a dedicated lath but that would be the best way to center up that assembly.
Has there been any research on fan volumns with regard to removing or changing the shape?- That's kind of an antiquated design compared to modern aviation design of turbo props. and varying pitch designs.
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some days I get up and just sit and think. Some days I just sit.
opinion untempered by fact is ignorance.
Don't step in any! |
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