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49vwsplit
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 10:29 pm    Post subject: 36hp Refresh Reply with quote

Last summer it was running pretty well but I was just fed up with the constant black patches everywhere I parked from leaking oil. I decided to refresh the seals on the engine. I've given it a quick pressure wash and started the disassembly in order to remove dirt and grime before doing the refresh with new seals.
My hopes are to not have to do a rebuild of the engine or any of the major components but so far I just had a few questions to pose here. There is clearly something not quite right but I don't have the experience to know what it is exactly.
So without further delay here are the pics I took so far. Any comments on the carbon build up on some pistons more so than others and likewise with the combustion chambers and plugs are welcomed.
Like I said, it ran pretty well, always started first shot and had no pinging or run-on symptoms. I could cruise at 50 -60MPH and climb hills fine. I really did not expect to find what you'll see in the pics.

Head on Motor - Cyls 1&2
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Head on Motor - Cyls 3&4
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Cyls 1&2
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Cyl 1
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Cyl 2
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Combustion Chamber 1&2
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Combustion Chamber 1
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Combustion Chamber 2
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Cyl 1 - Int & Exh Valve
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Stuck non hardened washer
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Cyl 2 - Int & Exh Valve
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Valve Cover Off - Right Side
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Rocker Set - Right Side
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Other side
****************************************

Cyls 3&4
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Cyl 3
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Cyl 4
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Combustion Chamber 3&4
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Combustion Chamber 3
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Combustion Chamber 4
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Cyl 3 - Int & Exh Valve
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Cyl 4 - Int & Exh Valve
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Valve Cover Off - Left Side
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Rocker Set - Right Side
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Engine on stand
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Cyl 1 Plug
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Cyl 2 Plug
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Cyl 3 Plug
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Cyl 4 Plug
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sgmalt46
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:32 am    Post subject: Re: 36hp Refresh Reply with quote

well she was burning oil. more so on the 1/2 side. at minimum i would hone and re-ring the p/c's if there still in spec. take the push rods out and see what the lifters look like. if they are shot you will need a whole tear down.the cam will look just like them. cant mix new lifters with a shot cam. now if they look good check the crank end play. if it's good you might get away with a ring and valve job. might as well have the heads done .
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Danwvw
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:49 am    Post subject: Re: 36hp Refresh Reply with quote

Looks like you were trying to stop the oil leak by using Permatex aviation form a gasket #2 on both the head side and the cover side of your valve covers? I wouldn't even mess with fixing the old piston cylinders rings etc... Get a new set.
As far as oil leaking it could have been leaking at the pushrod tubes etc.. That should go away with new seals and some silicone grease on them. The stainless steel tubes are so nice!
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sgmalt46
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 4:36 pm    Post subject: Re: 36hp Refresh Reply with quote

Danwvw wrote:
Looks like you were trying to stop the oil leak by using Permatex aviation form a gasket #2 on both the head side and the cover side of your valve covers? I wouldn't even mess with fixing the old piston cylinders rings etc... Get a new set.
As far as oil leaking it could have been leaking at the pushrod tubes etc.. That should go away with new seals and some silicone grease on them. The stainless steel tubes are so nice!
ya that is the easy way to go. but if you are trying to save a few bucks rings are $40 bucks and a piston set is $300+ and that is made in china a&a's. nos brazil or german are around $500. if it has k/s or cima/ brazil i would re-use them' it is not a 1600 .you can get those p/c's cheap i see a&a's for $129! do agree with the permatex on the valve cover gaskets. Wink
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Danwvw
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:59 pm    Post subject: Re: 36hp Refresh Reply with quote

The photos look like they are of a thin wall cylinder? The heads look like they have been opened up for more bore. Perhaps these are the 80mm big bore's AA-Performance sell for about $300. I don't think they ever broke in. Perhaps new rings and a bit of sanding of the cylinders?
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sgmalt46
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 9:38 am    Post subject: Re: 36hp Refresh Reply with quote

those 80mm big bores have not been out long .not even a year yet. doubt that. those look stock. stock wall thickness is a little over 3mm. measured at the top. like 3.11. i would use a hone. hard to get a cross hatch pattern with sand paper. Confused
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49vwsplit
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2017 7:37 am    Post subject: Re: 36hp Refresh Reply with quote

sgmalt46 wrote:
well she was burning oil. more so on the 1/2 side. at minimum i would hone and re-ring the p/c's if there still in spec. take the push rods out and see what the lifters look like. if they are shot you will need a whole tear down.the cam will look just like them. cant mix new lifters with a shot cam. now if they look good check the crank end play. if it's good you might get away with a ring and valve job. might as well have the heads done .


As info I just bought the car last summer. The gent who owned it prior to me was the Permatex maniac and I removed most of it before taking the pics I posted earlier. He had restored the body and chassis, gone through the motor and trans too. I'm 99% sure the bore is stock but I'll check before buying new rings.
My biggest concern after having bought it was he told me he was running conventional 10W30 oil so I'm thinking this is a contributing factor that caused the leaks and in turn caused the abundance of deposits in the combustion chambers.
There's also a trans fluid leak that soaked my clutch but that's another story.

In the event I wasn't needing a case split and full rebuild I made a map and tagged each rod where it cam from so I could put it back after I give the parts a bath. Here is the map of where the lifter/pushrods cam from. The intake lobes on the pushrods are completely smooth on the intakes but the exhaust all have a flat spot at the apex of the lobes. The flats are not significant and visually the cam lobes look perfect.
The end play was on the high side around 6 but I did a quick measurement. I'll do it properly and adjust with shims if necessary. All in all so far the motor isn't seeming too bad and I'll slap in a new ring set and a friend of mine has the tools for honing cylinders so I'll do that too.

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Without boring everyone with the same shot of all the rods on the rocker side, here's one since they're all in the same shape:
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Lobe side:
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Small flats of the exhaust lobes as per the map. Looks like a really pronounced flat but it's the reflection of the caliper. The flat is only detectable with touch:
#1
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#4
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#5
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#8
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Some piston pics. Dark areas and a closer inspection once I bathe them. Rings are getting tossed:
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sgmalt46
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2017 8:53 am    Post subject: Re: 36hp Refresh Reply with quote

looks like a good plan. someone got happy with the red rvt sillycone! don't let that get in the motor. that is only used on the cylinder base. don't use anything on the pushrod tube seals. i would probably leave the endplay alone. when you get the flywheel off and the seal and shims out push the crank back and forth and see if the bearing is moving in the case. if it is and you try to re-shim it the crank can lock up.
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Kjell Roar
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2017 3:40 pm    Post subject: Re: 36hp Refresh Reply with quote

10w30 should be fine, that's within the viscosities VW build the engine for. I use 10w40 semisyntetic on my 36 hp (Mobil Super 2000), one advance with synthetic is less carbon build up because it withstand more heat. I think you should measure the pistons against the cylinders'. Must be worn out, or bad rings to burn oil. Or cheap oil quality. Also check the ring gap. Too big, and it will use oil. For me, it looks big in the pictures. Either worn rings or wrong size.

Oil leak can be leaky oil cooler, or gaskets there. And they are more phrone to leak with higher viscosity oils, because of high oil pressure when cold. Some of the original oil coolers was phrone to leak, on the ovals. So newer, better oil cooler is a good thing.
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Last edited by Kjell Roar on Sat Apr 29, 2017 11:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
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txoval
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2017 7:32 pm    Post subject: Re: 36hp Refresh Reply with quote

Is it the original case for the car? If not and you go down the path of a rebuild, I highly recommend talking to Joe (Mr. Okrasa) or Matthew at aircooledresearch.com

Rebuilding a 36 hp engine costs more money than late model 1600's. Joe's long block prices are a good deal.

If you are low on cash and in a hurry, install new pistons/cylinders and have the heads rebuilt.

If you have time/money go ahead and do the rebuild.

Cleaning it up will make it look better...for awhile, but I bet you'll still have leaks. Looking at the condition of the pistons/heads, I think it's time to rebuild. Looking through the pushrod holes, the case looks dirty on the inside...build up from use
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49vwsplit
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PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 7:05 pm    Post subject: Re: 36hp Refresh Reply with quote

I put the heads, piston, push rods & cylinders in a bath for an overnight soak. Just minutes prior to that I removed one exhaust valve to find NO stem seal.

Edit: Apparently there are no valve stem seals in a VW head. It relies on a nice fit between stem and guide to act a seal ad the little oil that finds its way into the guide acts as a lubricant keeping everything working well.
Read and learn Smile

I did notice quite a bit of slack of the valve in the guide so it's now apparent I need new guides. Pretty good reason why the chambers and plugs were so caked with carbon, I'd say.

txoval wrote:
Is it the original case for the car? If not and you go down the path of a rebuild, I highly recommend talking to Joe (Mr. Okrasa) or Matthew at aircooledresearch.com


Is it the original case? No one knows since the birth certificate does not have the engine details but the numbers on the engine are within months of the chassis so good enough for at least being period correct.

So....parts are soaking. I'll have a see tomorrow if the main parts are in decent enough shape to be re-used. I'll replace any suspect parts with new.
I'll zip the flywheel off and change the main seal since I already bought it but all in all it's looking fine to be put back together without splitting the case.
My main goal is to get it up for this year and I'll drop the engine next winter and check one head chamber for results. If all is good I'll continue along. If it's looking rough after 4-5 hundred miles I'll do a rebuild and get in contact with the right peeps. I really do baby it so if it's not running right I'll put it away until winter.
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49vwsplit
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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 2:41 pm    Post subject: Re: 36hp Refresh Reply with quote

Having a hard day at work? Need a good laugh?

Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't the specs for the ring gaps as follows for a 36hp?
GAP - Tolerance Limits
0.30-0.45mm (0.012"-0.018")

with a wear limit of
0.95mm (0.037")

Well here's the funny part. I measured one piston at the skirt and they're a hair under 77mm. I measured the cylinder and it's just over 77mm.
I pulled the compression ring off and threw it into the cylinder to measure the gap and measured this
2.22mm (0.0875") <<<---Not a typo.

One more piece to the puzzle solved.
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Kjell Roar
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PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 2:21 pm    Post subject: Re: 36hp Refresh Reply with quote

49vwsplit wrote:
Having a hard day at work? Need a good laugh?

Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't the specs for the ring gaps as follows for a 36hp?
GAP - Tolerance Limits
0.30-0.45mm (0.012"-0.018")

with a wear limit of
0.95mm (0.037")

Well here's the funny part. I measured one piston at the skirt and they're a hair under 77mm. I measured the cylinder and it's just over 77mm.
I pulled the compression ring off and threw it into the cylinder to measure the gap and measured this
2.22mm (0.0875") <<<---Not a typo.

One more piece to the puzzle solved.


Seems like my eyes was right, the ring gap was too big. Thats why it burns oil. And oil leak due to blow by and high pressure in the crankcase.

So get new correct rings, hone the cylinders, bead in the valves, clean it up and put it together with new gasket's. My 36hp got that treatment 27 years ago, and after 50.000 miles still runs good. 100.000 miles total on engine. My cruising speed is around 70miles, or even a couple of miles more.

If you want to take it a little further, do a head job, clean up/widen up the inlet side, give it a 3-angel job and/or eventually flycut the heads, a 3mm flycut gives you 8.2 ish in compression. 1-1.5mm is easier to deal with.
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49vwsplit
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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2017 11:32 pm    Post subject: Re: 36hp Refresh Reply with quote

Just one more question before reasssembly.....do I need valve guides?

How can I determine the ID of the guides properly? I don't have a split ball gauge and the caliper won't give an accurate reading. Do I do the wiggle test and divide by 2 with the reading on the dial caliper? Is there a more accurate method without removing the guides to measure them?

The workshop manual states the clearance wear limit of the guides to be:
0.15mm (0.0059'') for the intake guide
and
0.16mm (0.0063'') for the exhaust guide

where nominal is:
7.008mm (0.2759'') for the intake guide
and
7.023mm (0.2765'') for the exhaust guide

So if my guide IDs are 7.158mm (0.2818'') or larger for intake and 7.188mm (0.2828'') or larger for the exhaust they're toast?

Is the above accurate?
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