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Seeking advice - 1st time engine/tranny drop
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Whaanga
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 8:02 pm    Post subject: Seeking advice - 1st time engine/tranny drop Reply with quote

In the near future, I'm planning to drop the engine/tranny on my 73 bus with a transplanted engine from a 914. I am looking for input/feedback from the experts and those who have a lot more experience than I do.

Here's what I plan to do:

COOLING SYSTEM
1. Replace missing cooling flaps and t-stat (I have these parts thanks to SG Kent)
2. Replace cooling fan

FUEL TANK
1. Pull fuel tank - clean and treat as needed
2. Replace or service non-working sending unit
3. Replace tank screen/spigot
4. Replace vapor line joints
5. Replace filler neck and components

TRANSMISSION
1. Replace main Gear plate
2. Replace shift ball
3. Replace shift rod boots
4. Inspect clutch/plate - replace if necessary

OIL COOLING SYSTEM
1. Inspect oil cooler and seals (replace if necessary)
2. Replace leaking oil pressure switch


From this list of tasks, what details should I consider? I have been buying the parts over the winter and have just a few more to purchase.

I am setting aside two weeks and I can pretty much spend each day all day to work. I am fully prepared and know that unexpected things will come up that may alter my plans and time line. Have I set aside enough time? What other factors should I be aware of? What am I missing?

I welcome your thoughts, suggestions, observations, advice, etc. as I prep to do this work.

Thank you (as always).
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Whaanga
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PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 3:56 am    Post subject: Re: Seeking advice - 1st time engine/tranny drop Reply with quote

Bumping this up and hoping for a response or two.

Thanks
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riverside66
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PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 4:26 am    Post subject: Re: Seeking advice - 1st time engine/tranny drop Reply with quote

Have you already looked over Mayor Ratwell's instructions? http://www.ratwell.com/technical/EngineRemoval.html

I did my first bus engine drop a few weeks back (though I didn't remove my transmission), not nearly as difficult as I originally expected, just go slowly, and if possible get a friend to help.

Good luck! Smile
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PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 5:01 am    Post subject: Re: Seeking advice - 1st time engine/tranny drop Reply with quote

inspect cv joints.If in doubt clean and repack.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nasSr7n-Nzk
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 9:25 am    Post subject: Re: Seeking advice - 1st time engine/tranny drop Reply with quote

I would reseal your new engine before putting it in unless you know for sure the present seals have less than 50-80K miles on them. Buy a Sabo rear main (flywheel) seal from GoWesty or others. I would also peen around the oil galley plugs if they have not been replaced with screw in plugs. Nothing will ruin you day as bad as having your engine lock up at 65mph because all your oil is spread out along the roadway behind you.

I almost always replace the clutch disc and pilot bearing if the old ones have more than 50K miles on them even if they looks good, and replace the tranny input shaft seal and shift rod seal.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
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Whaanga
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PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 11:00 am    Post subject: Re: Seeking advice - 1st time engine/tranny drop Reply with quote

All good advice here - thank you.

Wildthings - so the primary seal is the main rear main seal? Yes
Also, I'm new - but when I've studied clutch replacement and looked at parts, you can buy both a clutch plate plus a spring plate. Do I do both?

When you say oil galley - is that the oli cooler?

I have no idea how many miles are on the engine. The odometer reads 89,000 but who knows what that means.
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Whaanga
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PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 11:11 am    Post subject: Re: Seeking advice - 1st time engine/tranny drop Reply with quote

Ok....forget my question about the oil galley/oil cooler.
I did some more reading and figured it out.
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 11:23 am    Post subject: Re: Seeking advice - 1st time engine/tranny drop Reply with quote

Whaanga wrote:
All good advice here - thank you.

Wildthings - so the primary seal is the main rear main seal?


The rear main seal is the shaft seal on the flywheel end of the crankshaft, it seals between the flywheel and the block, there is also an o-ring that fits into a recess in the crank and seals between the crank and the flywheel. There is another shaft seal on the fan end of the crank, but any quality brand will work there.

Quote:
Yes
Also, I'm new - but when I've studied clutch replacement and looked at parts, you can buy both a clutch plate plus a spring plate. Do I do both?


This is subjective. If the clutch cover (spring plate) shows signs of having been extremely hot or is obviously worn, you are going to want to buy a complete clutch kit and have the flywheel turned. However if there isn't a lot of wear or signs of heat, I still change out the disc if the mileage is getting up there. Show you used parts to someone with experience if you don't feel you can make a good judgement yourself.

Quote:
When you say oil galley - is that the oli cooler?


The galley plugs are what I show a picture of above, there are something like 11(?) total in three different sizes. The ones behind the flywheel as shown are the worst for blowing.

Quote:
I have no idea how many miles are on the engine. The odometer reads 89,000 but who knows what that means.
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Whaanga
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PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 12:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Seeking advice - 1st time engine/tranny drop Reply with quote

Thank You - this makes sense and is very helpful.

Per working on the tranny nose cone components,
Should I also replace the two bushings circled in the photo?
If so, can high quality parts be found. I read a lot about the poor quality of parts these days so wonder if it's better to stay with a better quality part or newer but of questionable quality?
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 12:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Seeking advice - 1st time engine/tranny drop Reply with quote

I wouldn't go replacing bushings if the old ones are good, but the seals yes. Note that there are early and late nose cones that take different parts, so verify what you have before ordering. Never assume that engine and tranny parts for your model year are going to be correct, things get swap over the years.

You can get decent tranny parts from places like German Transaxle in Bend OR.
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PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 3:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Seeking advice - 1st time engine/tranny drop Reply with quote

While in there, I would put shut off valves on the gas lines from/to the tank. Makes changing fuel filter easy
Shift bushings
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Whaanga
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PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 5:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Seeking advice - 1st time engine/tranny drop Reply with quote

Yes - good idea per the fuel shut off valve. I did this last year when replacing the fuel lines.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Will first check the bushings before deciding where to change them out.
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PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 5:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Seeking advice - 1st time engine/tranny drop Reply with quote

my59 wrote:
While in there, I would put shut off valves on the gas lines from/to the tank. Makes changing fuel filter easy
Shift bushings


Would you mind expanding on this method? Photos? Thanks.
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Whaanga
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PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 6:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Seeking advice - 1st time engine/tranny drop Reply with quote

Well- I'm not an expert but when I replaced my fuel lines and moved the fuel pump out of the engine bay, I read about how others suggested it be done here on the Samba. I assembled this valve from a gas valve and barbs found at a trades plumbing supply house. The hose originates from the spigot at the bottom of the tank, loops around to the valve, on to the fuel filter, the pump, and to the carb.

The two photos show the way this was plumed.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I've been running it this way for about 6 moths and it's been working reliably.

Hope this helps.
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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 6:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Seeking advice - 1st time engine/tranny drop Reply with quote

Ok....I did it. Thanks to great advice here and lots of studying, I dropped the engine and tranny tonight. Now to get to work on the jobs I've identified. I'm sure I'm going to need more help so I'll use this thread to ask questions, post pictures, etc.

This photo shows a PO homemade trailer hitch that was welded to the engine mounts. I had to grind off the weld to free up the mounts.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Removed the back bumper to reveal some rust issues I hadn't seen before.




Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The engine/tranny resting next to the bus. I'm surprised how much taller the back end is with out all that weight.

More to come.... thanks for all the great help received here.
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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 7:30 am    Post subject: Re: Seeking advice - 1st time engine/tranny drop Reply with quote

Hi. Just viewing your new post here and have some comments to lay down here for possible discussion or ??
1- What do you know about the 914's internal condition?
a- Compression and/or leakdown.
b- Displacement- 1.7L, 1.8L, or 2.0L.
c- Many times we will find that a 914 has a different spec cam than a bus motor.
d- Are you going to run that progressive on the 914 motor?
e- I understand the 914 flywheel is a bit different than a bus flywheel.
f- The 914 has a different oil dipstick arrangement but with a '73 bus (top access hatch) you should have no issue here, I'd guess.
g- In addition, the 914 the timing marks are viewed from a different spot. I saw you had a separate thread on this but I think with he engine out it would be easy to locate/mark the true TDC and get whatever fan/pulley set-up taken care of.

2- If you are going to be installing the original flap assy, go and replace the oil cooler seals.
I would R&R the fan shroud and look around. The rear motor mounts take a beating in that area and are now easy to replace.
You can inspect the alternator and its wiring harness. There is also a rear crankshaft seal that is easy to replace now.
There are a pair of engine/trans mounts above the bell housing that tend to get overlooked as they are kinda hidden.

Hope his helps, Bill
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Whaanga
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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 9:51 am    Post subject: Re: Seeking advice - 1st time engine/tranny drop Reply with quote

Thanks Rockerarm,

I appreciate your comments. I'll reply to each

1 - I know nothing regarding the internal condition of the engine. I've had the bus for a year and done a lot to make it safe (all new brakes, new fuel lines, wiring, lights, etc.) I do know that it runs very well and smooth - I had a professional shop do a tune up an valve adjustment. I also know that a smooth running engine is not a clear indicator of lack of problems. I plan to do a rebuild in the near future (but not at this time.)

a- have not done a compression test, but this is on my list while the
engine is out
b- this is a 1.7 engine from 1971
d- will run the progressive carb until I can replace it with twin carbs
g- I bought a replacement fan found on the classifieds so will have to deal
with getting the timing marks correctly placed (my current fan
is missing two fins).

2- Thanks for the tip on the oil cooler seals plus the other suggestions regarding clean up and rear crankshaft seal. Have read a lot about this and find varying opinions on which type and where to buy the correct rear main seal.

For me, this bus is a slow and careful project so I'm taking my time in doing this (and other) work. I don't look at it as a long trip vehicle but I drive it around town and stay fairly close to home. I park it during the New York - salty winters and enjoy it in the good weather.

I have an appointment with Colin in about a month so will be glad to have him help me plan the next steps to improve the bus and its function/safety.
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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 7:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Seeking advice - 1st time engine/tranny drop Reply with quote

Here's an update. Was able to spend a great deal of time today. I separated the engine and tranny. Took a couple of photos of the clutch and bell housing. Found a small stray piece as seen in the bottom of the bell housing. Not sure what this is or where it came from.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Here's a couple shots of the clutch. What am I looking for to assess its condition. I think there is a date from 1987 stamped on the plate. Not sure if this is correct, only a guess.

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Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I removed the carb, dizzy, coil, etc so I could remove the top engine tins. I'm sure this is typical but discovered a stash of hazel nuts on the 3/4 side. There is a lot of crap in the fins - I did my best to vacuum out all the junk.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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Can I use an air compressor to clean out the jugs/fins?

Removed the front fan shroud and the three bolts for the cooling fan. So far, have not been able to remove the fan. I see a 13mil nut/bolt in the center of the fan, do I need to remove this before getting the fan out? Any advice as to how to remove the fan would be appreciated.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I sprayed the front fan shroud with Gunk/degreaser - it didn't do much. What else can I do to clean the shroud?
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


After removing the single carb, I could see into the engine - looks pretty dirty to me. Is this a ticking bomb? I have not planned to do a rebuild at this time but am planning this for my next engine drop after I can study/learn/prep.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 8:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Seeking advice - 1st time engine/tranny drop Reply with quote

First off you should wad up some paper towels or rags of some sort and block off the intake ports so you don't get all kinds of crap down in there.

The soot inside the shroud isn't going to hurt much, but something like carb cleaner should loosen it up a bit. If you want to increase flow then you need to smooth out all the casting marks with a rotary file and/or lots of elbow grease.

You need to remove the clutch cover from the flywheel to inspect the disc and the wear surfaces of the cover and flywheel. I would recommend that at a minimum you replace the pilot bearing and the clutch disc no matter how good either appears to be. Before removing the cover you can measure the clearance between the release fingers and the cover with a set of feeler gauges. When this clearance reaches zero the clutch is totally shot.

A small screwdriver and a wire brush will get most of the stuff out of the fins. A good blasting with compressed air will work as well.

Your intake ports are probably okay. Run something like Sea Foam in your gas from time to time to try to keep deposits down. Running synthetic oil will help as well.
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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 9:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Seeking advice - 1st time engine/tranny drop Reply with quote

Thanks Tcash. Right after I took the photos I stuffed paper towel wads in the intake.

So the plate on the outside with the 'fingers' that come to the center - is the the actual clutch plate? Is this what I should replace or is it an internal plate behind this one?

Also, any suggestions on how to remove the cooling fan?

I appreciate your help.
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