Newbie: Brake / lug pattern question

[paulundemma]

Hi,

we just started our new project: a 64 buggy with drum brakes all around. But we have 5x120 pattern on front axle and 5x200 on rear axle.

We need to replace the brakes and also the wheels/tires.
Now: What do we do?

Replace the front to drum brakes again but also 5x200?
Replace the front to disk brakes?
Replace all to a different pattern? What is possible?
What lug pattern is best?

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[YDBD]

I'm gonna say personal preference. I like the classic wide 5 look on rims so I kept it that way. If you are replacing the rims, see what available in the lug patterns. For example, if you like alum. slot mags, the small Chevy pattern works well as they will bolt on with out adapters, but if you want VW it's either wide 5 or small 4 (after 1968).

Price can be a factor too as wide 5 disk brakes are more $$.

Disk on all four really gives you maximum braking power, but drums do the job--back to how much $$ you want to spend.

[911pickup]

If you're going to put disc brakes on your buggy they should go on the front. That would mean buying a wide five front disc brake kit and a pair of wide five wheels to match the rear wheels.

[paulundemma]

Thanks for the reply.

Is it basically possible to change a 64 model to any pattern? front and rear?

I understand I have the king pin front axle. Is this correct?
Which of the possibilities are recommended or best choice cost wise:

a) 5x200 drum brakes on front and 5x200 drum brakes on rear
b) 5x200 disk brakes on front and 5x200 drum brakes on rear
c) 4x130 disk brakes on front and 4x130 drum bakes on rear

I know it is a question of preference, but until now I found front conversion kits but didn't find any conversion kit for rear axle? Where do I find this?

The pattern will also have input on the wheels I can go for.

Thanks.

[YDBD]

chircoestore.com has both front and back disc kits for kingpin and swing axle around $400-$500 per pair. The lug bolt pattern for VW is 5x205 for the wide five.

[IowaRedManx]

You appear to have an adapter on the front wheels that changes the wide 5 pattern to 120mm (4.72").

The buggy actually has 4 of the wide 5 brake drums.

[manxdavid]

Just fix up what you've got, brake shoes, fixings, cylinders and drums etc are easily available and cheap. If you've got adapters on the front throw them over a hedge and fit a pair of 5 on 205mm pattern steel wheels to match the rears but a little smaller.

Your buggy is very light and disc brakes can cost big $$$ but leave the car seriously over-braked and locking up much too easily.

[vwracerdave]

Welcome to The Samba.

My preference is to put stock Type III rear drum brakes on the back and the stock wide 5 drum brakes on the front. A lightweight Buggy does not need disc brakes. There are a lot more wheel choices for the early 5X205 wheel pattern then the late 4x130 wheel pattern. I won't use wheel adaptors on anything.
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[clonebug]

I've done the wheel adapter thing for over 10 years without issue. It does push your wheel out about a half inch or so but it does work.
I recently swapped over to Chevy pattern 4 wheel discs.
While it was NOT a bolt on experience it does allow a chevy/Porsche pattern without adapters and gives you excellent braking power.
If you can use common sense to installing discs you can do it too.

My pedal has never been firmer with the four wheel discs compared to drums.
It is great.

Just remember that the link pin disc setup usually pushes the wheel out about a half inch per side. At least with the Empi setup that I bought.

Here are the front discs...

The rears...

_________________

[paulundemma]

Thanks for all the replies.

We have now stripped the buggy and will take the body of tomorrow.

There are no adapters on front, some pre-owner has swapped for drum brakes 5x120 for whatever reason.

So I am basically down to 2 options:
Go for 5x205 drums front, rework the rear and new wheels or
go for 4x130 disk front, adapters or new drums 4x130 rear and new wheels.
What do you propose?

I found both front kits for around 200 USD, rear adapters are around 50 USD, no idea if there is a rear drum kit 4x130 available or if I have to go for single parts. Any suggestions?

Are drums ok also for 50 hp?

Thanks for all the help!

[didget69]

Get a pair of 5x205 stock front drums & new brake hardware - rebuild the front brakes.
Get a pair of 5x205 stock front rims.

The rear rim in photo appears bent out of round...

bnc
_________________
I never found the need to impress people with any mechanic certifications, trophies or track wins... unless it was for Mom to post on the refrigerator door.

[didget69]

[wythac]

The least expensive and easiest option in my opinion would be to find a pair of stock (and stock width) wide five (205) VW wheels for the front and swap out the drums/hubs for the same. Do your bearings and front drum brakes while its apart, then see if you feel you need more brakes than that when you get the car back on the road.

Plenty of time to upgrade to discs after you get it rolling, and its not difficult on a completed car. You appear to be tearing the car down anyway, so you may find later in your project that the money you $pent on disc kit(s) needed to be spent elsewhere.

I have wide five discs on the back of my car, stock drums up front, but I'm turning 31" tires on the rear. If it wasn't for that I'd find drum brakes more than adequate.

[paulundemma]

Again thanks.

I will do wide 5 drums and wheels all around.

For future options: In case of disks do I need to change the master cylinder also?

And yes: We tear it down completely as we find new "sub-projects" every day...
I was today offered a new motor, price seems reasonable and it is local, so we might put in 50 hp right away.

[wythac]

Good choice, with a bonus: You can actually run some hardware (hubcaps) with a VW logo on them!

I use a stock, late, dual chamber beetle master with no problems.

Was the car without a engine and you are putting in a 50hp 1600 (+50hp!), or did you come across a 100hp engine and are replacing your stock 1600 (also +50hp!)?

Good luck with your project.

[paulundemma]

The buggy came with the original 1200 30hp engine which is still installed, the motor is running.
I just happened to run into a 1600 50hp engine. As it is basically new and comes with all the components and carb (GEX, turn key) I think this might be a nice upgrade.

[YDBD]

First have fun! You will get a lot of different opinions but in the end it is your buggy.

I use a stock master cylinder from a '58 bug with discs up front and drum in the rear and have great braking power in the front and little wheel skid due to weight shift when braking. 70% of stopping power comes from the front regardless of weight of the car--it's a physics thing. Best to have good brakes all around, drum or disc.

[didget69]

[wythac]

I'll add this tidbit to what didget posted, and refer the OP to the beetle forums for more info on the topic:

VW redesigned the master to a dual circuit for safety reasons. In the old single circuit systems, a failure anywhere in the hydraulic system meant a complete failure, as the single reservoir would drain into all lines and eventually push air throughout the system.

Single circuit Bus reservoirs are/were popular with buggy builds for a long time because they were larger diameter and could push more fluid but, suffered the same safety issue.

A dual circuit system isolates front and rear lines and also allows for mounting a Rabbit or Volvo reservoir directly on top of the master. This has the benefit of adding to reservoir capacity so a leaking line or wheel cylinder wont drain your system as quickly. In theory this set up would allow you to get further down the road to a safe place to stop and effect repairs. The later style master also eliminates the need to mount a reservoir on the firewall, in addition to making it easier to service (access is better for refilling) when bleeding and flushing the system.

All that being said...a single circuit system works fine if properly maintained. I drove a Bus for almost 20 years with a single circuit system with no problems. Use high quality parts!

[paulundemma]

Talking master cylinder - can you tell me what this extra hose (professionally closed by the former owner with a screw) is good for?