Engine rebuild 101

[kiwighia68]

I'm starting a new thread for my amateur attempts at rebuilding an H stamped 1500cc engine for my '68 Karmann Ghia named Emiko. I have a good engine in the car, built for me by an expert, and my Ghia runs well and is no longer a project. Unfortunately, as one of my colleagues once remarked, "For Chris a car is not a mode of transport but a project."

Sad but true. There is some - but not much - method in this madness. My Ghia came to me with a replacement engine, which was again replaced during the restoration. I have now found what I believe to be an original 1500 H stamped engine, which is what Emiko would have had when she came off the assembly line.

Photos of the engine to follow.
_________________
Festina lente - hasten slowly
1968 Ghia named Emiko
Resto completed Dec 2015

[kiwighia68]

I'm calling this thread Engine rebuild 101, not because I am going to teach others how to build an engine, but because others will, I hope, teach me how to do it.

Here's the engine as found: Please tell me if it's not a genuine H series engine.

The engine number is as seen here: it looks original to me:

Some of the top parts look really old: How about this fuel pump?

And the dizzy and oil cooler: Into the "beyond salvage" bin, I think.

_________________
Festina lente - hasten slowly
1968 Ghia named Emiko
Resto completed Dec 2015

[kiwighia68]

Here are my first few questions to the professors of the University of the Samba:

Preface:

I have a budget of USD600 per month for a period of 6 months. I'd like to build the best performing engine without going beyond 1641cc, for which I have a good set of Mahle pistons and cylinders.

1. Generally, what can I achieve with my budget?

2. Should I open the case? If so, why? The main seal is tight and the motor turns over easily by hand.

3. Related to question 2: Should I install a high performance camshaft while i'm at it? (highlifting???)

I'll start by removing parts and cleaning the case.
_________________
Festina lente - hasten slowly
1968 Ghia named Emiko
Resto completed Dec 2015

[sputnick60]

[crocteau]

[rockerarm]

Hello. Regarding your initial question as to the originality of the H engine you have. For USA delivery, the 1500 engine was an H5 designation and these were emissions equipped engines. I'm not sure what other parts of the world would have. In addition, the '68 and '69 engines had 8mm oil pump studs and previous engines, '67, would of had 6mm oil pump studs. The pic you show seems to have a 6mm, nylock, nut for the oil pump cover. Not sure if that is something you wish to consider, especially judging by the exceptional appearance your Ghia exhibits now.
If $600 USD x 6 months ($3600) is your budget then I would say you could assemble quite a nice engine. I'd like to ask what are your other parameters for this? Period correct? Performance parts inside but stock looking exterior engine parts? Engine life expectancy?
At a minimum, I would split the case and inspect it for re-use. The flywheel, crank, and rods should be rebuildable. With your intended budget the cam, lifters, oil pump would probably not be re-used.
Hope this helps, Bill.

[xzener]

Where can I get a luggage rack like that?
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My 70 beetle was totaled Now to build the Ghia I always wanted. Rest in peace Ruby, I will miss you. Hello <insert Ghia name here>!

[mcdonaldneal]

Should be very Interesting.
Following.
Good Luck !

Not directly relevant, but might give you some food for thought...
Ultimate stock engine build
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1978 marino yellow Bay Dormobile camper
1969 signal orange Karmann Ghia convertible
1976 martini olive Bay Dormobile camper

Stop dead photo links! Post photos to The Samba Gallery!

[mcdonaldneal]

You never know Chris, fuel pump and distributor might be rebuildable?
If they're the right ones, could be a better option than replacements?
_________________
1978 marino yellow Bay Dormobile camper
1969 signal orange Karmann Ghia convertible
1976 martini olive Bay Dormobile camper

Stop dead photo links! Post photos to The Samba Gallery!

[slalombuggy]

First off, if you are going to "rebuild" an engine, ALWAYS tear it down completely. Even if the parts are good, you need to inspect everything and clean, clean, clean. You need to know what the bearings look like, what the case main bearing bore looks like and above all clean 50 years of crud out of the oil galleys and bottom of the case. Think of the engine case as the foundation to your home, you wouldn't spend all your hard earned money and time building a home for your family on a foundation that may be rotted would you? Same goes for engine building. I always replace oil coolers, even if they look new on the outside, they are next to impossible to get clean inside and may be harboring all sorts of chunks and crud from past lives.

As far as parts to use for your build, my first purchase would be a balanced counterweighted crank. They make for such a smoother running engine. I would also have all your rotating parts balanced even if you do it yourself, it makes a huge difference. The crank, flywheel (stock weight for a cruiser) and clutch need to be spun balanced at a shop, but you can balance rods and pistons with a quality kitchen scale. You can also add a small cam such as an Engle 100 or FK-41. Some mild head work and a set of Weber ICTs make for a great cruiser engine with a bit of get up and go.

brad

brad

[swavananda]

Here is a few thoughts. H cases are notoriously bad. A bad alloy mix made them very soft and prone to problems . Adding case savers is usually considered mandatory for a rebuild. As wells a possible Align bore. If it was a number matching engine it would be totally worth it.

That code stamp looks fishy, Like it was ground down and re-stamped. The H is fairly shallow and the numbers start to slant and look hand stamped. This probably indicates the engine already was rebuilt at some point.

Definitely tear it down and see whats going on inside. Main bearing #'s will tell you if a bore already happened or crank was ground. A side photo would show if case savers where happened to be installed already on head studs.

I Get the whole period correct thing but a later case would be much better in the long haul, Especially if this ones been worked over at some point already. IMHO.

[cool karmann collected]

Hmmm...

I think that is a pre-67 engine, probably a split bus originally from around 1965 from the limited research I have done. the pulley tin is wrong for 68 and I'd like to know the code on the distributor too as this may give another clue to the likely age.

Don't throw away any parts! decent early disributors are hard to find. A bit of grime can make decent things look like candidates for the bin. From recent bitter experience I would try to re-use as many original German parts as possible, new definitely doesn't mean good in 2017 when shopping for stock engine parts. I would keep searching for engines in all honestly, that looks like a small oil gallery, single relief motor - not something I'd throw $3600 at. Keep it as a spare though, it might yeild some good parts later down the road or you could trade it for something else.

Ant

[kiwighia68]

Wow! Some serious work handed out by the professors on my first day on the campus. Please excuse my failure to answer all the posts individually.

Bad news and good news in your input and advice. The bad news is that it is not a period correct engine for my Ghia. But that is also the good news. I realise now that my limitations insofar as knowledge, skills and tools are concerned are such that it's too soon for me to attempt a final build. I think I'll be better off doing this build as an apprenticeship, and build a really good motor later. Daryl's advice by PM, sound as usual.

To summarise the advice I've been given, in the order that I'm going to implement it, this is what I think I should do:

1. Since the engine is not original to a '68 year Ghia, rebuild this one while looking for a proper H- case for a more expert rebuild later. (rockerarm, Daryl by PM, and Swavananda, cool karmann collected)

2. Split the case, inspect, clean and consider what parts to use. (Sputnick60, slalombuggy, Swavananda)

3. Re-build and re-use the German parts (Phil, cool karmann collected)

4. Add case savers to the current H- case (Swavananda)

LATER, for the second H case:

5. Source and install a balanced counterweight crank, balance all rotating parts (crank, flywheel, clutch, rods and pistons) (Slalombuggy)

6.Add small cam - Engle 1-- or FK-41 (Slalombuggy)

Crocteau, the tree is not indigenous, and is leaning to port due to the prevailing wind off the Pacific. Much like me. Leaning left

Xzener, the luggage rack is by VintageSpeed from Taiwan.

A couple of additional photos:

_________________
Festina lente - hasten slowly
1968 Ghia named Emiko
Resto completed Dec 2015

[fes]

Personally I don't think I'd put much time into that H case,especially if you are not intending to put it into your Ghia, the reason I mention this is because of the lack of case savers,(already mentioned) but more importantly the lack of dual oil relief galleys that showed up in the later type1 engines..I say this only because proper machining and good parts are pricey,and I would only spend the time,effort and money on the superior "A" cases..
Again, just my opinion..
-Matt
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'68 Campmobile-Pedro
'15 Golf-Stella Blau
'56 Oval-The Turd (for now)

[rockerarm]

fes, I believe your statements are debatable. For everyone here there will be a different opinion, most with sound data to back up.
Sure the H cases are that much older than a '70 and later dual relief. Many 1200, F, and non emissions H cases ran for hundreds of thousands of miles with normal maintenance/rebuilds. The case saver craze began from the H5 emissions engines with lean carbs and retarded ign timing tearing these cases up. Since then every machine shop wants to install case savers. I agree 90% is warranted. I'm not sure how the "rest of the world engines" compare to the beating ours did. But I do recall reading a VWoA paper where during did-assembly it was suggested to "check" the torque of the cylinder studs at approx. 45 ft/lbs to verify the threads integrity (10mm studs).
Not everyone has the ability to obtain the latest/greatest AS41/AS21 engine cases for their projects. Their is a respected gent on the early type 1 section desiring to build a 1776 daily driver based off of a H5 case, as that is what he has. Things will probably go well for him with the limitations he is aware of.
I will agree, I personally wouldn't put $3600 into an old case engine, but if the case was checked good approx. $1000, or so in parts and machine work would be acceptable, from where I see this.
Bill.

[fes]

Yes, for absolutely sure there is nothing wrong with any of VW's previous designs, A couple of buddies of mine are running nice 36hp and 40's in their ovals and have no problem keeping pace, and that solid cast generator stand is so pleasing, But that said, they don't want to clutter up their engine bay with a 1600DP,which I completely understand..
The later cases came with all sorts of advancements,bigger passages for dog house cooler, dual relief and case savers to keep the studs from pulling out,This is why my own eye goes to those later,and arguably the best VW had to offer, and why I wont personally bother to put the necessary time and money into an antiquated design..But if someone really wants the nut and bolt restored from the factory floor 1500,the case is useful,
As a solid replacement "built to go",I'm going to put my $$ into the later case..especially if it has the bosses tapped for a bus moustache bar
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'68 Campmobile-Pedro
'15 Golf-Stella Blau
'56 Oval-The Turd (for now)

[slalombuggy]

I have no problems building a stock or mild engine on a single relief case. Yes the oil galleys are smaller but if you aren't going to be spinning a 2332 up to 6-8000 rpm don't worry about it, and it will be more than enough for a mild little 1641.

brad

[fes]

[kiwighia68]

[mcdonaldneal]

Chris, I think your plan is sound. A low cost rebuild, essentially stock, would be great experience, and give you a lot of time to think about where you're going.

Fuel pump is the good kind, circlip on the rod.
Distributor is originally from a '66-'67 bus (Old Volks Home info). It is vacuum only advance (SVSA), so the same type as your Ghia and mine, but the vacuum curve may be different.
I would say worth having a go at rebuilding, ask nicely and wcfvw or Glenn might sell you the 2 fibre washers it needs, and it would be worth USD100 or more to someone. Probably not perfect for your build though.
If you're rebuilding it stock, look out for a PICT 30-2 carb. Rebuild kits available, or I have one (a carb) if you're visiting.

edit for carb number
_________________
1978 marino yellow Bay Dormobile camper
1969 signal orange Karmann Ghia convertible
1976 martini olive Bay Dormobile camper

Stop dead photo links! Post photos to The Samba Gallery!