Removing cylinder 3-4 engine tin

[furgo]

I'm attempting to remove my rusty cylinder 3-4 engine tin with the engine in place.

I don't have a driveway, so I can't easily drop the engine. The bus is also parked far away from home, so I generally try to figure out what's required for the next job beforehand, so that I don't drive to where the bus is in vain. And hence this question

I had a quick look at it yesterday before I drove back home. I think this can easily be done, but there are a couple of things I could not figure out. I hope the picture illustrates them. It marks the bolt locations in the blue circles:

• The way I see it, the front tin needs to be removed, as it sits on top of the cylinder tin. But does the front tin need to be removed too, or can the cylinder slide/be pulled to the front once the front tin is out?
• Can the two bolts at the back of the cylinder tin be accessed from the top of the engine? I didn't look at it closely yesterday, but I seem to recall there is little to no room there, as the front tin curves forward on top of those.
_________________
'79 Westy, P22 interior, FI 2.0 l Federal, GE engine (hydraulic lifters)

Decode your M-Plate

[furgo]

I think I can answer one of my own questions. By looking at this picture of the front tin, it would seem as the two bolts at the back of the cylinder tin can only be accessed from underneath the engine (the two bottom left holes in the picture):

Which if I'm not mistaken, will in turn require removal of two other pieces of tin from underneath (bolts being discussed marked in blue, additional tin removals marked in orange):

I'm still not sure though: the piece of tin marked as "32" in the picture above (021 119 361 B) has the threads for the bolts, which would hint at the bolts coming from above instead, so that their heads hold the top pieces of tin. However, I can't see a way to access the two bolts from above...

Or are there two nuts on the front tin? It would seem redundant, but I still don't quite grasp how the two rear bolts are fitted.

_________________
'79 Westy, P22 interior, FI 2.0 l Federal, GE engine (hydraulic lifters)

Decode your M-Plate

[aerosurfer]

You are correct about removing the forward lower engin tin. It can be done, certainly helps to have a second set of hands to help align the firewall, big tin and lower piece.
_________________
Rebuild your own FI Harness..My Harness

77 Westy 2.0L Rockin and Rolling Resto!

72 Sportsmobile (sold)
79 Tran$porter... Parts car money machine (gone)

[williamM]

We just finished installing all that and do not see any top tin wear that needs to be bolted from the bottom,

Way back when -I did a cylinder change with the engine in and only had to release the shift rod and drop the rear carrier- this allowed the engine to "sag" on its front mt without damage and saved a lot of time.
_________________
some days I get up and just sit and think. Some days I just sit.

opinion untempered by fact is ignorance.

Don't step in any!

[CarlosZ]

I’ve removed every tin (except #36) with the engine in the bus. Removing is the easy part, wrestling the tins to match each hole with the engine installed is a bitch. If you’re attempting to remove the 3/4 head you may want to pull the engine with most of the tin and exhaust in place. I didn’t listen to reason and found out the hard way. You’ll soon bond with your engine with all the grappling, tugging and subtle pushing of the tins to get them on right. It’s an experience I don’t want to relive.

[furgo]

[CarlosZ]

Some of the tin holes are threaded. The tin with the blue arrows is joined with the big 3/4 tin. You have to remove the two screws from the top of the 3/4 tin (the two closest to the firewall - between the hump on the 3/4 tin where spark plug #3 and the firewall meet)

[furgo]

[CarlosZ]

This may help. Sorry for the poor explanation.

[furgo]

Oh, awesome, thanks a lot for taking the pictures, they're really helpful indeed!

Unfortunately, I'm still none the wiser. I've got another picture of the back of the cylinder tin, and the two screws definitely cannot be accessed from within the engine compartment.

I wonder if they need to be unscrewed from the back of the firewall tin from underneath the bus. I guess I'll have to do some crawling tomorrow...

Or does the whole set of engine tins need to be removed to remove the cylinder one?

What also confuses me a bit is that looking at my bus' picture from the last post in my case the screws come not from the top as in your pictures, but from underneath as hex bolts + washers. Which is weird, given that the thread is on tin piece #32. Your pictures look more like it should be to me.
_________________
'79 Westy, P22 interior, FI 2.0 l Federal, GE engine (hydraulic lifters)

Decode your M-Plate

[williamM]

[furgo]

[CarlosZ]

I realized I gave you bad info. Three tins are mated by the two screws. You access them from under the bus, by the valve cover.

[furgo]

Excellent, that's exactly what I needed, thanks!

I really appreciate you taking the time to put together the tins for the pictures.

That confirms what I was suspecting on my last post and finally answers the question of where to access the two cylinder tin screws from (the back of the firewall tin).

As per the other question of whether the cylinder tin can be removed with the firewall tin in place (once the front left tin has been removed), I think the last picture might also confirm that. From what I see, as long as the two back screws (and the rest) are out, the cylinder tin can be pulled towards the front. Update: actually, scratch that. It can't be pulled towards the front, as the intake runner studs on the cylinder head would prevent that. Oh well, I guess I'll have to try and wiggle it a bit to see if it comes out.

I'll report back.
_________________
'79 Westy, P22 interior, FI 2.0 l Federal, GE engine (hydraulic lifters)

Decode your M-Plate

[williamM]

Carlos hit the nail- That is exactly what we have here- because my build is on the engine stand and accessible from on top- sorry- for the miss--- any way- if the motor seal were pulled back, those screws that Carlos pictured should be visible from on top- yours are modified to make it easier to remove all that tin from the bottom.

I put studs on my small valve covers to the front shroud /heater box connections for the same reason.

Keep the pics flowing.
_________________
some days I get up and just sit and think. Some days I just sit.

opinion untempered by fact is ignorance.

Don't step in any!

[furgo]

Well, progress... somehow.

The threads on tin #32 were indeed gone, either to rust or thanks to a PO. As soon as I get the new tin, I'll get rid of the bolts-from-bottom-top-nuts contraption. It took me more than half an hour to remove them and more bus arm yoga poses that I was comfortable with.

That meant I ran out of time and I couldn't finish the job. That is, I did remove the bolts, just to find out that #32 tin piece was somehow stuck. From that position, and with the amount of rust involved, I could not tell exactly how. It would seem that rust has fused the part where it contacts the 4-tin sandwich (tin #32, heater box tube wing, cylinder tin, firewall tin).

I could not apply much force to pull it, as there is not much of a leverage point or room at all (the tin touches the case). I'll try again next time.
_________________
'79 Westy, P22 interior, FI 2.0 l Federal, GE engine (hydraulic lifters)

Decode your M-Plate

[furgo]

Today I realized why I had not been able to separate tin #32 from the cylinder tin last time. It was not rust, a PO had point-welded the two tins together near the bolts...

After doing some tin cutting I could set them both free without damaging the cylinder tin. Tin #32 didn't look too good at the end, but I've got a new replacement for it anyway. So done with crawling and now the easy bit: undoing the cylinder tin from the top.

Or so I thought. The bolts/screws that attach the tin to the case wouldn't come out. I had soaked them in penetrating oil last week, and did again today. No chance.

One of them seemed to move a bit without an inordinate amount of torque though, so I tried to undo it back and forth. It broke.

This has been a bit of a frustrating job. The reason I wanted to remove the tin was to better remove the broken TS2, or alternatively move it to the cylinder #4 location in case I wouldn't manage. I've now ended up with a broken TS2 and bolt.

I'll keep soaking the rest of case tin bolts for a few days and try again even more carefully :/. I was surprised to see the bolt breaking though, I'd expected them to be more robust (as I say, I applied what I felt wasn't a massive amount of torque).
_________________
'79 Westy, P22 interior, FI 2.0 l Federal, GE engine (hydraulic lifters)

Decode your M-Plate

[Amskeptic]

[furgo]

[Yarkle]

a right tin diagram would be cool too!
_________________
Tilda the Mustard Tigress 1973 Squareback (o'''^'''o)

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=771024&highlight=