71 Super Beetle Horn and Turn Signal Cancel

[Longmont1302]

Two things that have never worked in my 71 Super are the turn signal cancel and the horn. I suspect these issues might be related.

If I jump a wire from the steering column to the bendy copper connectors seen below, the horn will beep:

This makes me think the problem is actually in the steering wheel area, right?

When the turn signal lever is pushed one way or the other, I can reset it back to the center position by sticking my finger above or below the steering column and pressing the piece that juts up there. But for some reason, this doesn't happen automatically when you turn.

The cancel ring itself looks okay to me - it has the black plastic tip that I've seen broken off before:

I think I have all the necessary springs and nylon washers and bushings:

As this is an earliest Super Beetle I wonder if I'm struggling with the transition from the old style cancel ring to the new cancel ring. I also wonder if I might be missing a slip ring or contact disc or something else. Any ideas?

[[email protected]]

The canceling part on the wheel catches a little w shaped wire that pushes the switch off. That part of your switch is broken, so you will need a new one. As far as the horn, the section of the column with the switch can move up/down on the shaft. You should be able to install the steering wheel, and touch the wire going to the horn ring to the nut on the column shaft to get the horn to work. If not, the copper portions of the switch may not be physically touching the ring on the wheel. Here's a pic of the part you have missing on your switch.

[Longmont1302]

Hi gkeeton,

Thanks for the reply. I wonder if you have an earlier setup than I do. I notice you have the brown wire in the steering column; I don't. The Bentley book says that 70 and earlier cars have a wire in the steering column (if I'm reading it right). I also think the 70 would use an all-steel canceling ring like this: http://www.jbugs.com/product/111415660.html instead of the half-plastic kind that's in my car now.

I clearly don't have the w shaped wire seen in your photo, I wonder if my car used different parts than yours. In the first photo below the turn signal is set for a left turn and a black "tab" appears under the column:

Push this black tab with your finger and the signal snaps back to center:

I assume the protruding back side of the cancel ring pushes this little black tab.

<<As far as the horn, the section of the column with the switch can move up/down on the shaft. You should be able to install the steering wheel, and touch the wire going to the horn ring to the nut on the column shaft to get the horn to work. If not, the copper portions of the switch may not be physically touching the ring on the wheel. >>

I'm not 100% sure I' following you here, but if I touch the wire to the shaft the horn does sound.

[bnam]

To address your first issue - horn not working: The connection may be open in 2 places -
(a) the brass slip ring that's part of the cancellation ring is not touching the 2 brass tabs on the turn signal switch. If it is not touching, then the circuit will not be completed. They can be made to touch by sliding the portion of the housing that holds the turnsignal switch axially upwards along the steering shaft until the brass contacts touch the brass slip ring on the bottom of the steering wheel.
(b) the wire from the brass slip ring/cancellation ring is not connected to the horn ring.

Byas

[[email protected]]

The picture I posted was simply something I found in the gallery to reference the canceling wire. You are correct that is for a Beetle, not a Super Beetle, so it does have the wire coming through the column. Just disregard that part of it.

For the turn signal, the small tab that pops out when you move the switch is actually what shuts off the switch. The w shaped spring holds the mechanism of the tab popping out, and the pieces that tab pushes against to shut the switch off together as an assembly. Sorry to misword it above to add any confusion. The parts that hold the spring on your switch are clearly broken in your pics, and they aren't available separately, so you need a new switch. If the spring isn't present, there is no resistance holding the mechanism together to move the switch to the off position. It's one of those things once you see how it properly works on the new switch, you'll understand.

If your horn beeps when you touch the wire to the center nut/column, then the issue is in the horn ring. That small screw separate of the three that mount the horn ring gets the horn wire clamped into it. There are a combination of plastic insulating washers/springs used to mount the ring so it doesn't ground until it is pushed to touch the metal center of the steering wheel. Maybe do some looking into that assembly.

A 71 Super is a unique horn system, and I couldn't find any exact pictures. This is the closest one of a Beetle of how the wire gets attached to the ring. Your wire would be the one in the steering wheel, as opposed to coming out of the column.

[Longmont1302]

Thanks, gkeeton and bnam.

I'm pretty sure gkeeton is right on the signal cancel: I think I have the right switch, but it's missing the necessary spring. Maybe I'll get extra lucky at the VWs on the Green show this weekend and find a switch.

In the meantime, it seems like I have what I need to fix the horn, except for time to work on it when I won't wake everyone in the house!

Thanks again for the help - much appreciated.

Scott

[baldessariclan]

I was just recently working on similar issues myself -- ref. this earlier post for additional info:

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8433311&highlight=#8433311

The turn signal switch for 1971 model Beetles (both standard and Super) is unique to that year -- it doesn't match / swap with earlier or following year models.

The horn circuit on the 1971 model is also different than the previous years. For your 1971 steering column, the copper leaf springs sitting on top of the turn signal switch assembly should be "hot" whenever the ignition switch is turned on. From there the voltage is carried to the contact ring on the back of your steering wheel, which in turn should be connected to the silver "horn ring" in middle of your steering wheel (via a wire, slipping under screw in central portion of that horn ring). The horn ring is normally isolated from metal hub of the main steering wheel, but when you push it, they connect and you complete the circuit, grounding through the main wheel hub to the steering shaft, and honking the horn. Make sense?

So if you're getting a 12 V reading at those copper leaf springs (on turn signal switch) when ignition switch is on, next you'll want to mount steering wheel and see if your horn ring is "hot" or not when ignition on. If you're reading 12 V there as well, then your problem is likely further down the steering column shaft itself. Note that there should be a jumper wire across the steering column's rubber coupler (down near steering box). If this is missing or broken, then your horn won't work.

It does look like your turn signal switch is missing the "W"-shaped spring, which is normally positioned on the right side of switch assembly, and helps the switch to cancel. One or both of the little plastic tabs or "ears" that stick up through the slot might be broken off -- ??

Additionally, if your current turn signal switch is an aftermarket replacement unit (which might be - ?? i.e. the plastic looks somewhat new / white in your photos), it might be inherently defective and thus won't cancel reliably (or at all). This was the issue I had when I tried to put a new (aftermarket) turn signal switch into my 1971 standard Beetle recently, and few other folks reported similar experiences. Only solution I was able to find was to clean, repair, and lube the old original switch and reinstall. Once again, see my previous post in link above for more details.

Good luck to you -- hope you can get it all working!

[Longmont1302]

baldessariclan,

Thanks so much for the added detail and link. I'm going to focus on the horn tonight, and have added a German switch to my considerable wish list.

-Scott

[Molly1973]

My turn signal stopped canceling within the past couple months....this might be helpful - so the 73 super would have that w spring?

[baldessariclan]

Think that they all do for 70's models -- have that "W"-shaped spring, I mean.

[Longmont1302]

I eventually got my horn to work, but put off replacing the broken turn signal switch until now.

To recap, I have an early 1971 Super Beetle - one with the wiper switch on the dash. Because the W wire on my turn signal switch was broken, my turn signal never shut off automatically so I decided to replace it with one from Jbugs.

Complicating matters, the PO replaced the fuse box and didn't adhere strictly to stock configuration, including (but not limited to) using some non-original wire colors.   

The wires from the old switch were connected to wires from the front of the car by means of crimp-on wire connectors. Prior to cutting them apart I thought I had meticulously photographed each connection so I'd know what wires to connect with what. Once everything was apart I found that my photography was somewhat lacking. Using notes from JBugs (found under the Tech Tips tab in the above link) and my photos I created this chart with my best guesses of what should go where. From that I temporarily connected all the wires using some Wago lever nuts.

At first the turn signals seemed to work fine but the horn was stuck on (even if I disconnected the horn wire from the horn ring). From there I tried some trial and error (which I suspect was an error). Now when I return to the wiring in my chart, the horn doesn't sound and the turn signals don't flash, although the green light in the speedometer does light up when I signal left and right (making me suspect three wires might be connected correctly).

Can anyone suggest the right way to go about troubleshooting this now (given that I may have already damaged the signal relay and horn with my trial and error)? 

[Cusser]

[[email protected]]

If you have an aftermarket fuse panel with non-og colored wires, you’re simply going to have to do some tracing/checking power with a test light. Power to the fender lights in the column switch originates from the hazard/4 way switch, through the flasher, and into the column switch on a black wire with white/green stripes. The switch then transfers the power to either black w/white stripe for one side of the car, or black w/green stripe to the other side. The speedo light goes on a piggy back from the black/green/white wire to the the speedo. The horn should simply be a brown ground wire in the switch harness connected to a contact that touches the back of the steering wheel while it rotates, then the horn ring grounds it to the column.

[ashman40]

[Longmont1302]

Thanks for the feedback and diagram, friends.

[NonStopPhantasm]

Longmont1302, thanks for starting this thread. I also have a '71 super (same color even) and have been struggling with a goobersmoocher of a PO doing some really shoddy wiring repairs. The info in this thread is likely to finaly get my horn working properly.
My suggestion for tracing out what the wires under the column are connected to are to get yourself a good long run of wire that you can put alligator clips on either end of.
Take a multimeter with an audible contunity setting (the one that beeps when the probes touch eachother) and connect one end of your long jumper wire to the function you want to identify (horn, left turn signal, etc) and the other end of the super jumper goes on either of the multimeter probes.
Take the other probe and start poking at the bundle of wires under the steering column one at a time. When the meter makes noise you know that wire under the dash is connected to the same thing that the other end of your extra long jumper wire is on.
At least that is how I did it. As soon as I can scratch up $300 I'm going to order a complete wiring harness from Jbugs and redo the whole car because the PO actually had bailing wire used as ground wire in a couple of spots.

[ashman40]

First question... did you already cut your new turn signal switch wires?? I hope not. You are making the same mistake I and others have made... you are thinking the easiest/best way is to use the old wires and splice your new wires into them under the steering column. That is really NOT the best way to approach this. The switch wires are meant to be long enough to reach their end points or to a junction. You should be crimping new uninsulated female terminals to the ends of the wires, not splicing them. Especially the turn signals as they are carrying current for 21w bulbs x2 or x4. Avoid splicing if possible.

The hardest part is terminating the wires so they will connect to the relays mounted to the relay bridge over the fuse box. Only two of the wires from your new turn signal switch run to relays (brown/white dimmer relay wire; black/green/white #49a flasher relay wire) To properly connect these at the relay bridge you need uninsulated female terminals with the small locking tabs. Like this:

If you have the means of crimping these to the ends of the two wires and normal female terminals to the ends of the other wires you don't need to use the old wires. Just pull the old wires back into the trunk and feed your new turn signal wiring harness thru in their place. On the trunk side you can trace each old wire individually and replace it with your new wire.


The turn signal OUTPUT wires (black/green and black/white) each run to separate 4-way junctions along with other wires of the same color.

Crimp female terminals to the end of these wires and replace the old wires at these two junctions.

The brown horn wire runs to the brown wire coming from the horn (-). Look for this horn wire near the black/red brake light wire coming from the left front of the car.

The ground wire for the dimmer switch (white on the new switch?) runs to a ground somewhere behind the dash. Any ground point will work.

Now the last two wires (dimmer brown/white and flasher relay black/green/white) run to different relays on the relay bridge.
Pull the dimmer relay off the relay bridge and ID which terminal is "S" and where that male terminal inserts into the relay bridge. Look underneath the bridge and trace the "S" wire coming off this position. This should be one of the brown/white wires in the old harness. If you have a new female locking terminal you need to use a small jeweler's screw driver to remove this wire from the bridge. Depress the clip from the top of the bridge wire you pull the wire out the bottom. Inset the new "S" wire into the bridge and listen for the "click" as it locks into place.
Alternatively, you can cut the old wire within a few inches of the relay and splice your new wire to the old wire hear near the fuse box, reusing just the last few inches of the old wire.

The flasher relay #49a wire is the same. ID which terminal is #49a on the flasher relay. One of the wires on this terminal will run into the old harness as black/green/white. For this wire it is probably easier to splice into since there are typically three wires connected to this terminal. If you use a new female locking terminal you may need to splice multiple wires into the single female locking terminal. Look at the terminal and decide for yourself.


I think that was all the new wires, right? Did I miss any?
_________________
AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!}

[Longmont1302]

Hey NonStopPhantasm,

Your suggestion of using a multimeter with an audio continuity signal is a good one, thanks. I can make my multimeter work thanks to an extra test wire with alligator clips, but it would be easier if I wasn't trying to see it, too.

Here's our Clementine 71 Super:

I hope to see yours someday.
Scott

[Longmont1302]

[Longmont1302]

I'm still chasing down continuity between the wires under the dash and the wires under the hood. It would be a lot easier to trace the wires through the hole if they weren't held so tightly by the rubber that protects it as it passes through. Is there a name of this piece of rubber? Here's what it looks like under the hood:

Here's what it looks like under the dash:

Is there a way to remove this without wrecking it? Should I be able to push it into the cabin of the car? Or should I be trying to slide individual wires in and out with it in place?