1951 Deluxe Micro Bus discovered - Second Oldest Samba

[Lowdown Dirty Rat]

Be interesting to see if all the existing deep skylight deluxes have M 51 on their birth certificates, sounds like it, and then if it appears again on any ‘later’ deluxes.

As for my old 51, all the pictures I have ever seen of the restoration are it being cut up then it jumps to solid in primer pictures.
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1951 Samba 20-017894
1952 Samba 20-028952

[Lowdown Dirty Rat]

What makes me wary of this factory deluxe line photo fitting our narrative is the samba roofs being stacked up and worked on off the bodies of the buses.

Why bother starting with a 24A sunroof microbus if you are not going to cut in skylights on the original roof but replace the whole thing. May as well start with a 23A, non sunroof bus. Or a bus that hasn’t had any roof fitted at all yet.
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1951 Samba 20-017894
1952 Samba 20-028952

[busben]

Could be later than the period we’re discussing?

[busben]

Good spot with the M51 theory Chris

[busben]

I’m assuming the other bus in the photo is 20-017671 Rob?

It would be interesting to know if this is pre the planned Stateside “re-restore”, or post “re-restore” but still in 15 window guise, (bumpers off, etc. indicate work carried out?).

[Lowdown Dirty Rat]

Yep the one Graham did. Though isn’t it 17671?
They were both purchased on the same uk trip and have been together in Florida ever since. Kinda cool as they are only 223 buses apart.
That photo is from last week. Post US re-restore.

From last month

Ive put a couple more of similar angles in the gallery.
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1951 Samba 20-017894
1952 Samba 20-028952

[busben]

What you saying about my big thumbs? (I’ve corrected the VIN, you are 100% right).

So re-restored in the USA already, and as a 15 window; I know it had too much filler for the new owners liking so quite probably also underwent a pretty extensive strip down and rebuild.

Yeh, nice to see them together and looking flawless. Great photos Rob. Thanks for sharing.

[Lowdown Dirty Rat]

Crazy world we live in that back in 2000 when I knew nothing of barndoors I brought my 65 walkthru ragtop microbus off Chris Hull, and when he dropped it off he showed me the front panel of that very 51 ‘15 window’. It was in the back of his car at the time!
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1951 Samba 20-017894
1952 Samba 20-028952

[RockStock]

[RockStock]

[busben]

To be fair, that’s a very sensible statement. If they were taking sunroof standards off the line to convert, why would you weld on the roof first? You wouldn’t. You’d leave it loose so you could take it off and add the skylights in an easier environment. Makes a lot of sense. Try doing that job with the roof already welded on……

[Lowdown Dirty Rat]

Gotta be a higher resolution version of that pic somewhere?
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1951 Samba 20-017894
1952 Samba 20-028952

[busben]

[Florian Kalff]

I totally agree with you Ben, but I am a little bit optimistic looking into the future. Busses showing their history and patina will be of higher value soon, simply because you can´t fake patina and history and so they are more rare than the reshelled Busses. And as rarer a collectible is as more value it has, isn´t it this way?

Plus, the power of the internet support this evolution. A patina Bus tells a story and this is what people always like to see, hear and read. A reshelled Bus tells what?

A picture of a reshelled Bus shows just Bus looking as new. A reshelled Bus at a meeting might be nice to look at, but put three in a row it´s, simply boring. Put three patina BDs in a row and the crowd will stay around them for hours, talking, discussing, photographing, etc.

A patina BD is a celebrety by its unique history and the ammount of people following its story around the world. A reshelled BD is kind of a new car. Guess which of both is more desireable?

I bet if Mark puts his Kohlruss on auction today, it would end up at a price tag none of us has ever seen before. But, that´s another point, hardly none of us hardcore restorer would sell his baby, cause it´s a lifetime project you won´t ever give away.

There is a saying about the Hebmüller market: "there is no price for a Heb, cause there is no Heb for sale." What just makes any Heb crazy valueable. What could be more precious than something money can´t buy normally?
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http://www.samba.vewib.de/

[Lind]

[ddutch]

I think this is a very interesting discussion here. I totally agree with Florian on his vision of value, patina and originality. Maybe you can compare it with art. Only a real Van Gogh, with all of it's characteristics and scars has true value. A new made painting on the same canvas and in the same frame is surely not the same. It's missing its soul and its history.

My own admiration and fascination for patina vehicles in general started with the ressuraction of the famous Kempes bus by Mark Spicer, some 10 years ago. I found it fascinating how he kept as much of the original bus intact as possible and only used or made new parts where they were missing or absolutely necessary. The same proces was repeated with the Kohlruss, and now with the early 1951 Samba.

Some years ago there was an interesting topic about a very rare Alfa Romeo 1900 Coupe on the Alfabb forum; https://www.alfabb.com/threads/need-1955-ssz-zagato-parts.198093/
A guy was asked by the owner of the car to make it driveable again and he was asking for some advice on the forum. Immediatly there were responses from other forum members who warned him to be very careful because of the rarity and the value of the car. There were assumptions made about this value ranging from some 10th of thousends till around 150000 dollars. It was largely untouched and still in its original state. Some time later the owner died and the car came up for auction shortly after and it made a staggering, record amount of money for this specific model, that suprised everyone. This was due to its originality and untouched condition, although it was not even a matching numbers car. Most of the cars of this type are restored and there are some new build replicas as well.
https://www.glenmarch.com/auction-cars/show-backup-image/56448/results

2 years later another example of this rare model was brought to light by a famous car collector. It was also largely original and unrestored. It was only given a light touch up and a mechanical revision and was brought to several concours like Peble Beach in its unrestored, full of patina condition. There are rumours it later changed hands outside of the auction circuit for double that of the car above, which would again make it the most valuable car of this type.
http://corradolopresto.blogspot.com/2018/11/che-emozione-il-ritrovamento-dellalfa.html

And then there is a third car of the same type which is kept by its (6th) owner for almost 55 years(!!!) now. That car was pretty original as well although painted once, but the owner has completely restored it meticulously in the past 8 years, but I sincerely doubt if he added any value by doing that. His story about his life with the car and its restoration is very interesting and can be found on his blog. He still owns a Bay-window bus which he bought new in the 1970s as well; http://alfa1900csszagato.blogspot.com/2013/01/in-beginning.html

So this might be an illustration and indication of the appreciation for patina and originality in the collectors market for (exotic) cars. They are only original once A barndoor might not be as rare as these exotic Zagato cars that were build in very tiny numbers, but they are special nonetheless, especially the early Deluxe versions which, together with the Hebmuller beetles, can considered to be the most rare, valueble and special classic VW's ever build.
But in the end it's not about the money of course, it's the true intrinsic qualities and characteristics that determine what a car or an object really is and it tells us an interesting story most of the time.

[Jimone]

cool discussion. for me there is no debate. i want my old car to be old. ill copy what i said over in my pickups thread.

[DSweinhagen]

To add some context for anyone that hasn't had hands on experience with an early deluxe, all the "23 window" features on a deep skylight bus really are hand built and crude. The 4th window opening is welded into the upper side panels, as if they start with standard/kombi window panels, then weld in the rear-most window opening cut out of another stamping. The skylights are cut out, the four sides formed, then the corners filled in. The corner windows are done in a similar way. Here's a pic of a skylight on the '52 (22287) I helped restore when it was in bare metal...

You can also see remaining lead work on the next opening over. All these window openings are very square, almost like they were done on a brake and unlike a stamped opening. I've wondered if they were done before being assembled or on the completed body?

I feel like all these details are important and would be very hard to replicate. While the '52 I restored was fully body-worked and painted, I went to great lengths to try to save some of this crudeness. When you stand back, it looks like a nice bus, but if you look close, the beltline isn't straight, the driprail bows, the way many of the panels come together are wonky, etc. Not to mention all the other regular '53 and earlier crude stuff like waviness and ripples in the pillars and what not. Some thought all that needed to be smoothed out, but I stressed it had to stay. Again, I just don't know how you'd replicate these details and I think everyone here agrees they're really an important part of an early deluxe.

What Florian and Mark are doing with this '51 is amazing!

Anyway, I'm sure glad my '51 24A didn't get pulled off the line and hacked by the factory.

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David S

[RockStock]

Really top posts, all. The Alfa stuff is relevant. Yes, sounds like that 24A got lucky…earliest surviving one?
I’ve tried to retain as much authenticity as possible on my ‘55 Deluxe resto…this thread has got me questioning could I have done more

It would be good to see more detail pictures on the 51/52 4th window, the rear window, the corner windows, and the skylights (inner/outer). In bare metal, or in original paint. I’d be all over those details if I had a 51/2. The skylight runs would be tricky to replicate, wouldn’t they…I wonder if has anyone has tried to do this.
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-StockRocks-

[busben]

That ‘52 is a fantastic example of how to restore an early bus properly if going down the “fresh paint” route. Amazing work saving so much metal and so many early details David, I really enjoyed the thread on it, and also a really great photo thanks