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PDXSyncro Samba Member
Joined: August 25, 2010 Posts: 135 Location: Portland OR
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Posted: Wed May 24, 2017 10:16 am Post subject: Syncro vibration help!!! |
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Hi good people! I have a new one I need some guidance on. So I have a 1987 doka syncro 112i DJ and started getting some vibrations while driving between 25-35mph in 3rd gear. Milder but slightly noticeable in other gears typically at the lower RPM range. The vibrations started to get real bad so i began my troubleshooting journey! After reading all of the good posts on the subject I disconnected my drive shaft and drove the doka and still has some noticeable but less noticeable vibrations. So I went around and checked my CV joints and they were seemingly loosish on the passenger side so I took out the back axles/joints and cleaned them, regreased and reinstalled on the opposite side to get the different areas of the joints used. NOTE: no egregeous wear on the joints or bearings. All pretty nice looking once cleaned. I also had a trannie leak on the driver's side so I took the opportunity to put on some new flange seals and caps. After reinstalling everything I took the doka out again and still have the vibration just as before without the drive shaft installed. So at this point I'm wondering if the vibrations could be coming from the front cv joints even though there is no direct load from the prop shaft. OR if this might be the trannie itself, maybe the VC? The trannie has never been rebuilt but I did change the fluid about 1-1.5 years back and there wasn't a whole of metal. Also the engine and trannie have less than 50k miles. I've also seen the post about the gearbox bushing. Any goodway to check this without simply replacing it? Just looking to see how it looks? Any thoughts there? If it's easy enough to replace I'll do it. I haven't found a gearbox bushing for the syncro from powerflex nor a vw one, so does anyone know where to source one from?
Any thoughts appreciated as I work through my vibration issues.
Cheers,
Glen |
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MsTaboo Samba Member
Joined: June 02, 2006 Posts: 4065 Location: East Kootenay, British Columbia
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Posted: Wed May 24, 2017 2:42 pm Post subject: Re: Syncro vibration help!!! |
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A couple questions,
Is there vibration while coasting, or only while engaged in gear? Under load, or deceleration?
If you're still getting vibration while in neutral it is most likely something else besides the transaxle.
One thing to check is if you are missing any wheel weights, an out of balance wheel will give vibrations at given speeds. Look for any obvious areas on the rims where a missing wheel weight might have been.
Loose wheel bearings, and aging suspension components are other possible areas to check.
Bad tires is another thought.
Also see that you have a conversion, what about your engine mounts?
The transaxle mounts are pretty basic and would have to be badly worn/compressed to cause issues unless they are loose?
Good luck! _________________ Currently:
'90 Syncro Westy 3 knob w/Zetec
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PDXSyncro Samba Member
Joined: August 25, 2010 Posts: 135 Location: Portland OR
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Posted: Thu May 25, 2017 11:53 am Post subject: Re: Syncro vibration help!!! |
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Hi There! Thanks for the reply!
The vibration seemingly happens only during acceleration and at that more noticeably at the lower RPMs 1500-2500. If I let off the gas the vibration goes away. During acceleration it's almost as if the the engine were chugging creating this vibration. I feel it slightly in every gear during acceleration at the low RPM but more so in 2nd and 3rd at the lower RPMs and at the matching MPH. Seemingly as RPMs go high above 3500 it's gone. Maybe due to the torque. Which makes me wonder if it's the VC sticking. I wonder tests I could do to verify that. I'm worried that I maybe burning out the VC by driving it around town (I'm avoiding longer trips with it at the moment). Any thoughts there?
Another thought that comes to mind is the AFM. I had an issue a while ago where driving in eastern Oregon (higher altitudes) I would get the engine losing power, stalling and bucking. I ended up taking out the air intake and soldering a capacitor across wires 2 and 4 as indicated in this write up (I used a different write up but the same procedure): http://www.benplace.com/vanagon_intermittent_syndrome.htm
Once installed I haven't had the bucking and loss of power issue again but this chugging/vibration reminds me a little of some of the symptoms during acceleration. I recall wipers in the AFM that I cleaned at the time and wondering if those could be worn enough to cause a stickiness during functioning that could cause this issue. Not sure if there's a good way to rule that out, outside of opening up the AFM and using an ohm meter to verify :-/
I've checked the trannie carrier rubber mounts and they appear in fairly good condition and tightened down.
I'll have a look at the wheel weights, thanks!
I have another 87 camper syncro that has a subaru conversion but the issue is on my 87 doka.
Any other help is welcome. I'm really just looking for where I should focus my time on this one next as it was quite a procedure to do the CV joints and although it was warranted and a good thing to do I want to get this issue solved so that I can use this vehicle again.
Thanks for any thoughts, responses! |
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MsTaboo Samba Member
Joined: June 02, 2006 Posts: 4065 Location: East Kootenay, British Columbia
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Posted: Thu May 25, 2017 12:33 pm Post subject: Re: Syncro vibration help!!! |
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If these vibrations are continuing with the driveline removed then it has nothing to do with the VC. (and I've never heard of the VC causing vibrations anyway) The VC is a rather simple device and you won't harm it. A bad VC will show itself as either not working at all (Slipping, no power to the front) or by freezing up which means always power to the front axles and it will be really hard to make tight turns on hard surfaces.
The usual Syncro drivetrain vibration happens even when coasting (with driveshaft installed), so it sounds like it's something else. Motor mounts, CV's, bearings, wheels, sticking brakes, etc. You can jack up each wheel and give it a good shake (3-o'clock/9-o'clock, 6-o'clock/ noon) and spin, to help isolate some of these issues. And some of these will manifest all the time not just under load.
Vibrations from the running gear is quite different than power delivery problems.
Another thought, have you checked that your front diff has oil? (although a dry or worn diff would most likely make noise or vibrations all the time, but it's something you should check anyway) _________________ Currently:
'90 Syncro Westy 3 knob w/Zetec
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Bassyaks Samba Member
Joined: October 06, 2010 Posts: 1135 Location: S.E. Connetitcut
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Posted: Thu May 25, 2017 4:25 pm Post subject: Re: Syncro vibration help!!! |
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You didn't say if you were depressing the clutch pedal when decelerating , doing that will eliminate the Engine as a problem.
You said "The vibration seemingly happens only during acceleration and at that more noticeably at the lower RPMs 1500-2500. If I let off the gas the vibration goes away." I believe pinion bearings do that" |
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PDXSyncro Samba Member
Joined: August 25, 2010 Posts: 135 Location: Portland OR
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Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 8:23 am Post subject: Re: Syncro vibration help!!! |
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Thanks for continuing to work through this with me! MsTaboo: makes a lot of sense. I'll check the wheel bearings! I haven't ever changed the front diff oil, so I'll put that on my to do list as well.
Bassyaks: You're absolutely right and as a matter of fact I was testing this out a little yesterday while driving around town. And I do still notice some effects of the vibration when I let off the gas peddle and the transmission is still engaged. It's much less but still chugging a bit. When I push in the clutch then no vibration at all, quite smooth. So for example I'll be in 3rd going 45kmph and climbing and noticing the chugginess, then will get to a higher RPMs at 55-60KMPH and release the gas (engine still engaged and thus "engine breaking") and notice the chugginess, then I depress the clutch and chugginess goes away!
So with that said what do you think this could be in the engine? Is there a way to determine if the pinion bearings are a culprit without pulling the trannie?
Some further notes/info: A few years ago I replaced all of my fuel lines, fuel pump, filter, etc... (Yay!) and when under the doka yesterday noticed a slight bend in the tube that goes from the tank to the pump. Not quite a pinch but a half or quarter pinch. Not sure if this could be problematic. I think at the time I might of had an inch too much fuel line there and over time it made a small pinch. I'd be surprise if this was it considering that the chugginess/vibration goes away or is not noticeable at high RPM and acceleration which I would think would be taxing the fuel/pump more than at lower RPMs. Anyway, I thought I'd note it in case it was pertinent.
Other things to check? This is a DJ so no O2 sensor! |
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PDXSyncro Samba Member
Joined: August 25, 2010 Posts: 135 Location: Portland OR
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Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 8:24 am Post subject: Re: Syncro vibration help!!! |
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FYI: I'll be out this weekend but will get back to some of these checks next week! Thanks again for working this one out with me! |
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MsTaboo Samba Member
Joined: June 02, 2006 Posts: 4065 Location: East Kootenay, British Columbia
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Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 9:50 am Post subject: Re: Syncro vibration help!!! |
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If your pinion bearing were going out enough for you to feel it there will be loads of metal in the oil. Easy to check. You can check your oil plug for metal without having to drain the oil, get ready, unscrew and stick your finger over the hole real quick, look at the plug and then replace. You'll only loose a little bit of oil if you're fast and organized.
There will be lots of metal, even chunks, if the pinion is that bad. You can also then make the decision whether to replace the oil again if the oil seems dirty or full of small fines. It's not a bad idea to change the oil every few years.
As for the fuel line, I wouldn't worry too much about that unless the kink were bad, then I would replace it mostly because the kink could become a crack. But if it's as mild as you say then I doubt very much it's effecting performance. The fuel system delivers way more fuel than the engine uses.
Again, power loss or engine performance issues and drivetrain/suspension vibrations are gonna manifest themselves in quite different ways. If you're not sure what you are feeling maybe have a friend or a shop take the truck for a test drive to help out. _________________ Currently:
'90 Syncro Westy 3 knob w/Zetec
The information age has morphed into the age of disinformation and willful ignorance. Agnotology!
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PDXSyncro Samba Member
Joined: August 25, 2010 Posts: 135 Location: Portland OR
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Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 7:15 pm Post subject: Re: Syncro vibration help!!! |
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Hi,
I'm still working on this one. Today I started doing the front CV joints and hit a snag. I completed the front passenger side but the front driver side CV is horribly stuck in the hub. I borrowed a front drive hib puller and it worked on the passenger side although already started stripping the puller bolt. It was impossible to get it working on the driver side, completely stripped by then. I tried banging on it with a small sledge and piece of wood (with nut in place) but just crushed the wood. Anyway, any tricks or tips for a stuck front cv joint?
Cheers! |
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Kombi///M3 Samba Member
Joined: March 16, 2011 Posts: 427 Location: Vancouver, BC
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Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 8:48 pm Post subject: Re: Syncro vibration help!!! |
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Have you tried this?
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=670529&highlight=syncro+hub+puller
I had a syncro vibration a few weeks ago..
same here took my front cv's and checked
Diff..etc. Then found the rear brakes were
Shot. Did my brakes and the vibrations went
Away.. it must'a warped my drums hence on
The vibration.
Good luck. |
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PDXSyncro Samba Member
Joined: August 25, 2010 Posts: 135 Location: Portland OR
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PDXSyncro Samba Member
Joined: August 25, 2010 Posts: 135 Location: Portland OR
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Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 4:42 pm Post subject: Re: Syncro vibration help!!! |
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Update: got the drivers side axle removed. Took the stripped hub puller back, got another one and was able to get it removed. After cleaning and re packing the outer cv I found the inner cv to be a beat up so I'm going to buy a new one tomorrow and install it. Might take the opportunity to install new wheel bearings as well but unsure of the hassle just yet. Need to research more. Seems like it requires a complete removal of the hub. Anyway I'll see. Not sure that this CVjoint is my smoking gun but we shall soon see! |
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Bassyaks Samba Member
Joined: October 06, 2010 Posts: 1135 Location: S.E. Connetitcut
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Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 5:09 pm Post subject: Re: Syncro vibration help!!! |
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Go out and drive it without the CV's in it. You'll know right away if that's the problem ( probably not) You don't need a puller, a Impact gun with a pointed chisel on it works great (make sure the nut is on close to the end of the outer CV to protect the threads. If you used a puller you probably ruined your wheel bearings. |
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PDXSyncro Samba Member
Joined: August 25, 2010 Posts: 135 Location: Portland OR
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Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 11:54 pm Post subject: Re: Syncro vibration help!!! |
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Got the front cv joints completed and all back together! Now all joints are done and problem still exists! :-/ which I thought it would but it's an elimination process and the cv joints sure needed it! so here's my list of next things so far:
- afm swap with known good one
- check back brakes for warping
- need to get wheels swapped about and might have them checked for balance.
Back to a rearticulation of the issue:
When in 2nd or 3rd from 2k rpm the van chugs causing a vibration effect. As soon as it gets past 3k rpm it goes away. When the prop shaft was in it created quite a vibration. After removing I can still feel it but less prominent but still quite noticeable. I've cleaned and greased all cv joints and repaired a transmission leak with new seals. Should probably top off the trannie fluid now that I think about it. Anyway that's the state of things. anything else to add to my list of checks?
Thanks! |
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MsTaboo Samba Member
Joined: June 02, 2006 Posts: 4065 Location: East Kootenay, British Columbia
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Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 9:21 am Post subject: Re: Syncro vibration help!!! |
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Get the engine running smooth so you can isolate cause and effect.
All the work you have done is good maintenance, so not a waste of time, but you need to determine if it's a running issue or drivetrain.
Rereading the older posts another thought came to mind. Is the clutch old? It's possible it's coming apart. Pretty rare, most bad clutches just slip, but it could be a cause. Just something else to consider.
Good luck! _________________ Currently:
'90 Syncro Westy 3 knob w/Zetec
The information age has morphed into the age of disinformation and willful ignorance. Agnotology!
Help the fight against Truth Decay.
Defend democracy, support Ukraine. |
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davevickery Samba Member
Joined: July 16, 2005 Posts: 2887 Location: Fort Collins, CO
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Jon_slider Samba Member
Joined: April 11, 2007 Posts: 5091 Location: Santa Cruz, Crowdifornia
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Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 11:15 am Post subject: Re: Syncro vibration help!!! |
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this thread is excellent, full of very relevant suggestions
removing the prop shaft was a good move
cleaning CVs was a good move
(though I do not agree with swapping left rear to right rear, Imo axles can be flipped, but should stay on same side)
try to eliminate the tires as a source
1. confirm proper torque on all lug nuts, if you find some loose ones, let us know if it solves the issue
2. rotate and balance the wheels. inflate to doorjamb specs.
you might want to use an app like iseismometer, to actually measure your vibrations (take a screen shot), so you can later measure if the vibes changed.
verify your ball joints,
wheel bearings grind when turning, more in one direction than the other.. you don't seem to be describing that
motor chugging (power surges) at low rpm producing vibration suggests possible clutch slip issue.
also check if you have a clutch throw out bearing going bad, by partially depressing the clutch pedal (while stopped, motor running, in neutral), do you feel vibrations in the pedal?
Flush and fill the tranny.
To determine if it is having internal issues, check the amount of metal on the drain plug.. post a photo of it.
I look forward to hearing you solved the issue, and how _________________ My Soapboxes: Inflation; Handling; Gearing; Decoupling; Swepco |
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Honuak Samba Member
Joined: April 21, 2009 Posts: 520 Location: AK
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Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 3:56 pm Post subject: Re: Syncro vibration help!!! |
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Did you try the "VC method" of loosening the front diff mounts?
Worked for me.
Apologies if you've tried it. |
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PDXSyncro Samba Member
Joined: August 25, 2010 Posts: 135 Location: Portland OR
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Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 1:48 pm Post subject: Re: Syncro vibration help!!! |
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Hi Folks! Again I have to thank everyone for the recent suggestions. This is all helpful. I just got back from vacation and back to tackle this issue.
Jon,
Regarding some of your valuable comments the clutch slip, throwout bearing seemed to be most pertinent for me to check. The clutch is NOT vibrating when depressed in neutral.
I did however hit what I think might be the issue. Even though I had done a tune-up not along ago I thought I'd check the spark plugs and one of the plugs (#4 cyl rear driver's side) was quite oily (looks like #4 image from top http://www.3fowlers.com/images/photos/manual/Spark.jpg)! The others seemed normal wear: (#1 image from top).
So I swapped out a with a slightly used but good condition one (Checked the gap to .028). Then took the car for a spin. The issue noticeably changed. It still chugs and stutters a bit in lower RPMs. A lot less noticeable in 2nd and also different but still quite noticeable in 3rd.
So this this potentially looks like it's an issue with either #4 cylinder misfiring and burning oil! Maybe a worn seal, valve or as I've been reading even a bad breather tower! So I'm off to investigate this further. Any tips please let me know!
Cheers,
Glen |
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dobryan Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2006 Posts: 16473 Location: Brookeville, MD
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