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Sodo Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007 Posts: 9517 Location: Western WA
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Posted: Thu May 25, 2017 11:34 am Post subject: Stiff Rockford CV boots - clamps REQUIRED |
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I finally drove my van, for the first time in MONTHS, and was elated, except that a CV joint was clicking LOUD. I thought I broke a cage or something, by overextending the suspension while installing rear springs.
So I removed the axle and rusty water poured out of the CV. Note it's a pretty stiff Rockford boot - that I declined to use a clamp on. Which I did because lots of Samba members said the boots can last longer if they can float a little. Which made some sense at the time.
I went to Descend On Bend last fall, driving thru torrential rains, but no deep water. It's been up on blocks since December. You can see by the grease color the CVs were serviced not long ago (about a year?). Anyway, rusty water poured out of the outer CV.
Clearly the boots are stiff enough that they can open up at the small end and let water in. I will be using clamps from now on. That boot life theory was a good theory, but this might be "robbing Peter to PayPal."
(PayPal to T3 for new Lobros ....+ Rockford boots) _________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb
Last edited by Sodo on Thu May 25, 2017 9:15 pm; edited 6 times in total |
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Christopher Schimke Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2005 Posts: 5375 Location: PNW
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Posted: Thu May 25, 2017 11:42 am Post subject: Re: Stiff CV boots - clamps REQUIRED |
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Yes, clamps are definitely required with the Rockford boots. Running without clamps can also allow the boot to cock a bit allowing the inner valley of the smallest portion of the boot to rub on the axle which will cause it to fail prematurely. _________________ "Sometimes you have to build a box to think outside of." - Bruce (not Springsteen)
*Custom wheel hardware for Audi/VW, Porsche and Mercedes wheels - Urethane Suspension Bushings*
T3Technique.com or contact me at [email protected] |
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Sodo Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007 Posts: 9517 Location: Western WA
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Posted: Thu May 25, 2017 11:44 am Post subject: Re: Stiff CV boots - clamps REQUIRED |
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You can also see that it has polished the axle, that will wear out the boot hole even looser. _________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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MsTaboo Samba Member
Joined: June 02, 2006 Posts: 4065 Location: East Kootenay, British Columbia
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Posted: Thu May 25, 2017 1:29 pm Post subject: Re: Stiff CV boots - clamps REQUIRED |
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Sodo-I'm trying to figure out that odd spacer in the left hand pic, what is that? _________________ Currently:
'90 Syncro Westy 3 knob w/Zetec
The information age has morphed into the age of disinformation and willful ignorance. Agnotology!
Help the fight against Truth Decay.
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Colorado Yeti Samba Member
Joined: August 25, 2013 Posts: 356 Location: Ft. Collins, Colorado
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Posted: Thu May 25, 2017 1:34 pm Post subject: Re: Stiff CV boots - clamps REQUIRED |
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Any reason you couldn't use high quality zip-ties? By the way, I am glad you posted this because I just replaced mine with Lobro CV joints and Rockford boots. I did not put any type of clamp on them. |
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davideric9 Samba Member
Joined: January 21, 2009 Posts: 998 Location: Oakland CA
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Posted: Thu May 25, 2017 1:59 pm Post subject: Re: Stiff CV boots - clamps REQUIRED |
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that odd spacer looks like a VSS (vehicle speed sensor). _________________ 1987 Syncro Westfalia, stock (bought 1994)
1986 Syncro Westfalia SVX, 3 knob (bought 2008)
1987 Westfalia (bought 2010)
1988 Wolfsburg GL (bought 2012) |
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Sodo Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007 Posts: 9517 Location: Western WA
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Posted: Thu May 25, 2017 2:29 pm Post subject: Re: Stiff CV boots - clamps REQUIRED |
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I think a strong nylon Ziptie, wrapped twice around would work great.
I used the steel clamps, not sure if they were Rockford or Lobro.
Here's some how-to pics.... One method....
I hold the tail with a small vise-grip and push the rearward tab with a screwdriver, hooking the front tab. With front tab hooked, remove the screwdriver and the rearward tab sets down in it's hole. Its pretty easy to set it tight.
Crimped with a modified Harbor Freight nipper ( a $6.99 tool)
Heres how I modified the HarborFreight nippers to crimp better. I used a cutoff-wheel on an angle grinder, to remove some material on the backside of the cutter, so it would crimp better.
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb
Last edited by Sodo on Fri May 26, 2017 9:56 am; edited 2 times in total |
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MsTaboo Samba Member
Joined: June 02, 2006 Posts: 4065 Location: East Kootenay, British Columbia
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Posted: Thu May 25, 2017 4:27 pm Post subject: Re: Stiff CV boots - clamps REQUIRED |
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davideric9 wrote: |
that odd spacer looks like a VSS (vehicle speed sensor). |
Sodo, is that what it is, a speed sensor for your EJ25? Interesting that it does not completely encircle the CV under all the bolts, maybe unequal clamping pressure? There does seem to be a lot of dirt on the face of the CV. (or was that from removing it from van?) _________________ Currently:
'90 Syncro Westy 3 knob w/Zetec
The information age has morphed into the age of disinformation and willful ignorance. Agnotology!
Help the fight against Truth Decay.
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dhaavers Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2010 Posts: 7733 Location: NE MN (tinyurl.com/dhaaverslocation)
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Posted: Thu May 25, 2017 4:56 pm Post subject: Re: Stiff Rockford CV boots - clamps REQUIRED |
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Thanks for the post...great timing on this!
I just ordered new Rockford boots (thanks, Chris!) but I've always left the OE-style
(rubber) boots loose, and would have done so again on this install but for this info (!)
I now plan to clamp with HD/extreme rated zip ties, available locally...
SAMBA!
- Dave _________________ 86 White Wolfsburg Westy Weekender
"The WonderVan"
<EDITED TO PROTECT INNOCENT PIXELS> |
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Sodo Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007 Posts: 9517 Location: Western WA
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Posted: Thu May 25, 2017 5:27 pm Post subject: Re: Stiff Rockford CV boots - clamps REQUIRED |
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Glad to help. that dirt is from inside the trailing arm. Dirt piled ontop of grease thrown out. Its a good reason to clean out your trailing arms. In case you have to change an axle sometimes you don't want to re-grease it. Oops now even if slightly off topic,,, it's certainly a good observation from the photo. The "red" is rusty water.
I edited the topic to come up well in searches, for those folks searching out this technical subject. I know how it is when you have a problem to solve --- its nice to have the content on the "first page"; on topic & matching the thread title too.
Anyway if anyone out there is running their clamps looseball you might check inside your boot for water before zip-tying it tight. These CVs were "pretty good condition (OEM VW branded!) about a year ago, now are all rusted, and pitted where the grease "went away", kind of displaced by rust. Lesson learned. _________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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MsTaboo Samba Member
Joined: June 02, 2006 Posts: 4065 Location: East Kootenay, British Columbia
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Posted: Thu May 25, 2017 8:26 pm Post subject: Re: Stiff Rockford CV boots - clamps REQUIRED |
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Are you sure the water was coming in through the small end of the boot? I wasn't talking about the dirt on the outside of the CV but rather the dirt on the face of the CV which is clamped to the mating surface. If your CV was not secured with equal pressure due to mismatched clamping force of the bolts it's possible the water ingress came from the large end. ( or from gaps caused by dirt that was not cleaned off before installation of the CV's.)
p.s. I've done my share of CV repacks and have never used a clamp on the small end of the boot, also never had any water get in there. I have not used the Rockford boots so this may only be a problem with those, but I was curious about the VSS, and the dirt that is crushed onto the end of your CV.
When I do CV's I always lay a clean rag or wax paper inside the trailing arm to prevent any dirt getting into the grease.(both removal and install) _________________ Currently:
'90 Syncro Westy 3 knob w/Zetec
The information age has morphed into the age of disinformation and willful ignorance. Agnotology!
Help the fight against Truth Decay.
Defend democracy, support Ukraine.
Last edited by MsTaboo on Fri May 26, 2017 1:14 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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thatbaldwinlife Samba Member
Joined: August 01, 2011 Posts: 759 Location: Out exploring
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Posted: Thu May 25, 2017 9:07 pm Post subject: Re: Stiff Rockford CV boots - clamps REQUIRED |
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I just put Rockfords on after my 2nd torn Lobro boot in 10K miles. I did not use clamps on the Lobro and my Redline grease was contaminated with water and the grease was brown on both outer joints only. I used the supplied clamps this time on the Rockfords.
nate _________________ 1987 Westy
Insta: @Thatbaldwinlife
Vanagon Adventure and DIY videos:
That Baldwin Life YouTube Channel |
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Sodo Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007 Posts: 9517 Location: Western WA
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Posted: Thu May 25, 2017 9:11 pm Post subject: Re: Stiff Rockford CV boots - clamps REQUIRED |
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Dirt on the end of the CV is fresh from touching its greasy face on the dirt inside the trailing arm, trying to maneuver it out without unbolting the Syncro skid plate. Thats a good tip about covering the CV, maybe a plastic bag over it just after separation?
CVs don't go on crooked. Its a precision 6-bolt interface, and it has to be, it spins at ~700 RPM. The problem you suggested would cause violent vibrations. Loose CV, bolts not tight etc would have shown other telltale signs, ruined bolts, and thrown grease. Also Not allowed me to drive to the water that might ingress. Other than getting caught in a flood.
Anywa back to boots & clamps, clampless boots rub on the axle and wear the hole out bigger. It was kind of "open" at the bottom, where a drip of water running down a (stopped) axle might just run into the boot. Or maybe it was the axle sliding in and out that brought water in.
There are corrugations on the axle ( boot grip) that can
1) abrade the small end hole, causing loss of seal tension
2) perhaps transfer water into the boot with movement. Think of the boot bend rotating around this corrugation, it could even function as a "pump".
Anyway this is my feedback and observations with regards to the non-clamp proposal of extending boot life. I'm thinking that with the stiff Rockfords, zero motion allowed between axle & rubber is a requirement. And as T3 wrote, if the bend causes the 1st valley of the boot to touch the axle it will wear thin and crack there. _________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb
Last edited by Sodo on Thu May 25, 2017 10:49 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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djkeev Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007 Posts: 32432 Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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rubbachicken Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2004 Posts: 3058 Location: socal
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Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 6:33 am Post subject: Re: Stiff Rockford CV boots - clamps REQUIRED |
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i've had lobro boots fail in under a year, the protected ones inside the trailing arms
the difficult bit is explaining to folk, that yes they need new CV joints, which come with new boots, but you really should buy "extra" new boots to be fitted _________________ lucy our westy
lucy's BIG adventure
meet 'burni'
markswagen {mobile mechanic} san diego area all early VW's cared for.
619 201 0310 or 617 935 4182 |
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Christopher Schimke Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2005 Posts: 5375 Location: PNW
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Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 8:13 am Post subject: Re: Stiff Rockford CV boots - clamps REQUIRED |
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Sodo showed how he installs the clamps so I'll show my method too.
I use a pick to reach into the third hole in the Rockford clamp (other clamps may be different) and hook onto the first tang.
Then I simply lever the pick over until the tangs pop through the holes. You often have to push the clamp down over the tangs with a screwdriver at this point.
While they work okay, I'm not the biggest fan of the simple pinch-type pliers for this job. I prefer the type that pinches and flattens the clamp at the same time. It's hard to see, but there is a hammer that comes down onto the top of the clamp as you pinch it. That hammer prevents the clamp from bending upwards while pinching and actually flattens the clamp at the same time.
Finished job, nice and neat!
_________________ "Sometimes you have to build a box to think outside of." - Bruce (not Springsteen)
*Custom wheel hardware for Audi/VW, Porsche and Mercedes wheels - Urethane Suspension Bushings*
T3Technique.com or contact me at [email protected] |
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Sodo Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007 Posts: 9517 Location: Western WA
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Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 10:01 am Post subject: Re: Stiff Rockford CV boots - clamps REQUIRED |
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Thats a nice tool! Someday I will have one of those.
I used the steel clamps, not sure if they were Rockford or Lobro. But they have a deep punched stiffener that seems to hold the top flat even without that anvil pushing them down. At least at first-use.
I know when you try to "re-use" them you will wish you had that special tool. I've had this notion that they can be punched down with a 3rd hand while squeezed with the nippers, but have not tried it (yet). _________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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lucianosanchez Samba Member
Joined: May 04, 2016 Posts: 212 Location: Ventura County
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Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 10:13 am Post subject: Re: Stiff Rockford CV boots - clamps REQUIRED |
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I didn't use the clamps that came in the Rockford boots either. I am removing my transmissions soon and will surely be checking for signs of water. I will also be installing the clamps while they are out.
Thanks! _________________ 1983.5 Aussan Brown Westfalia | 2016 to 2020
1983.5 Beige Westfalia | 2019 to Current |
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phlogiston Samba Member
Joined: March 30, 2009 Posts: 336 Location: seattle
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Posted: Tue Jul 04, 2017 12:12 pm Post subject: Re: Stiff Rockford CV boots - clamps REQUIRED |
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i can attest to the necessity of properly securing rockford CV boots. i installed them on my front axle last september, and secured them only with zip ties (tightened securely with a zip tie gun). recently i climbed under the van to replace a steering rack boot and was amazed to find one CV boot completely destroyed. fortunately i had a spare on hand. unfortunately, i really don't enjoy the R&R process for syncro front axles.
now i'm paranoid about boots disintegrating from axle contact. i installed the metal clamps, but i only pulled the end of the boot out to where the OD of the axle increases. now i'm afraid that this isn't far enough. should the small end of the rockford boot be pulled further onto the axle than what is shown in these photos?
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ALIKA T3 Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2009 Posts: 6315 Location: Honolulu,Hawaii and France
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Posted: Tue Jul 04, 2017 7:44 pm Post subject: Re: Stiff Rockford CV boots - clamps REQUIRED |
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phlogiston wrote: |
i can attest to the necessity of properly securing rockford CV boots. i installed them on my front axle last september, and secured them only with zip ties (tightened securely with a zip tie gun). recently i climbed under the van to replace a steering rack boot and was amazed to find one CV boot completely destroyed. fortunately i had a spare on hand. unfortunately, i really don't enjoy the R&R process for syncro front axles.
now i'm paranoid about boots disintegrating from axle contact. i installed the metal clamps, but i only pulled the end of the boot out to where the OD of the axle increases. now i'm afraid that this isn't far enough. should the small end of the rockford boot be pulled further onto the axle than what is shown in these photos?
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It looks like the CV boot with the white zip tie was over extended.I usually do not clamp them, but there are different schools. To me, it will sit where it is happy to sit with no zip tie. The original ones didn't have anything there, it adds stress IMO to clamp the ends.
Nice steering boots, they look familiar _________________ Silicone Steering Boots and 930 Cv boots for sale in the classifieds.
Syncro transmission upgrade parts in the Classifieds.
Subaru EJ22+UN1 5 speed transmission
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=416343
Syncro http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4...num+gadget |
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