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jeffinohio
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Joined: February 02, 2017
Posts: 197
Location: Scio Ohio
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 Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 8:17 am Post subject: Re torque head studs? |
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I have seen some people suggest retorquing the bottom head bolts when you have the valve covers off.Ive never done it as the head is supposed to be torqued in a specific order.Are a lot of you guys doing this?Should I?Thanks JK
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Glenn 
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
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| Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 8:33 am Post subject: Re: Re torque head studs? |
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Never done it and thing doing the bottom without the top is a waste of time.
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Glenn
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vwracerdave
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Joined: November 11, 2004
Posts: 15297
Location: Deep in the 405
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| Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 9:12 am Post subject: Re: Re torque head studs? |
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Nope.
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FreeBug
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Joined: March 12, 2012
Posts: 4278
Location: deepest, darkest Switzerland
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| Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 10:45 am Post subject: Re: Re torque head studs? |
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| If that were necessary, VW would have gone out of business long ago...23 million new engines sold...imagine 23 million customers coming back for a re-torquing! |
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jeffinohio
Samba Member
Joined: February 02, 2017
Posts: 197
Location: Scio Ohio
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| Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 11:04 am Post subject: Re: Re torque head studs? |
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That was my thinking as well.Why would you re torque half the studs?
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vwjetboat
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Joined: May 11, 2017
Posts: 1732
Location: Florida
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| Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 11:32 am Post subject: Re: Re torque head studs? |
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It is common practice in any vw shop when doing a valve adjustment on an old motor to re torque the bottom Nuts.. was doing it 33 years ago.. and its still done at most shops.. why ?
Ok so you put torque wrench on and they are almost right on the number.. just a tad tad loose.. then the rest on top are most likely tight too..
Ok so you put torque wrench on and they are loose.. you stop .. call customer and recommend the motor be pulled and heads re torqued..
If it is your personal car.. then you should check the bottom nuts..or wait till it starts popping..and spend more money.. for something that just a little labor could have solved.. |
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maui
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Joined: May 16, 2004
Posts: 438
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| Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 11:52 am Post subject: Re: Re torque head studs? |
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| You're correct. I've bin doing it that way for as long as you. |
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Glenn
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76884
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 11:54 am Post subject: Re: Re torque head studs? |
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| vwjetboat wrote: |
Ok so you put torque wrench on and they are loose.. you stop .. call customer and recommend the motor be pulled and heads re torqued..
If it is your personal car.. then you should check the bottom nuts..or wait till it starts popping..and spend more money.. for something that just a little labor could have solved.. |
Little labor?
Remove engine
Remove fan shroud
Remove intake
Remove upper cylinder tins
Torque head studs
Put it all back together
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Glenn
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vwjetboat
Samba Member
Joined: May 11, 2017
Posts: 1732
Location: Florida
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| Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 12:01 pm Post subject: Re: Re torque head studs? |
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| Glenn wrote: |
| vwjetboat wrote: |
Ok so you put torque wrench on and they are loose.. you stop .. call customer and recommend the motor be pulled and heads re torqued..
If it is your personal car.. then you should check the bottom nuts..or wait till it starts popping..and spend more money.. for something that just a little labor could have solved.. |
Little labor?
Remove engine
Remove fan shroud
Remove intake
Remove upper cylinder tins
Torque head studs
half a days work.. yea.. a little labor..
Put it all back together |
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Glenn
Mr. 010
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| Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 12:19 pm Post subject: Re: Re torque head studs? |
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| vwjetboat wrote: |
half a days work.. yea.. a little labor..
Put it all back together |
If you're paying a shop you can be looking at $500+
I've run a number of engines for more than 100,000 miles and never retorqued the heads.
Why stop there? How about the 6 main case studs?
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Glenn
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vwjetboat
Samba Member
Joined: May 11, 2017
Posts: 1732
Location: Florida
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| Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 1:08 pm Post subject: Re: Re torque head studs? |
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| Glenn wrote: |
| vwjetboat wrote: |
half a days work.. yea.. a little labor..
Put it all back together |
If you're paying a shop you can be looking at $500+
I've run a number of engines for more than 100,000 miles and never retorqued the heads.
Why stop there? How about the 6 main case studs? |
Is very common for head studs to come loose.. not so much case nuts.. its called insurance.. no clue how long it takes you but I can pull a rocker arm shaft off in a few seconds few more seconds to put a torque wrench on.. if they are loose.. it needs to be addressed.. if you have never had or seen a head come loose.. then you have not been around vws much.. but its VERY VERY COMMON.. and if you can adjust valves proper.. as the OP was referring to doing, then pulling the motor and tin is not a big deal.. |
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Glenn
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| Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 1:17 pm Post subject: Re: Re torque head studs? |
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| vwjetboat wrote: |
| then you have not been around vws much.. but its VERY VERY COMMON.. |
If you call owned the same VW for 43 years, for building over 40 engines, for running a local club for 20 years "not been around vws much', then yes.
My good friend owns a shop, for 45 years, that maintains over 100 aircooled VWs and i've never seen him once recommend retorqueing the heads.
I've dealt with a number of engine builders including Art Thraen, Gary Berg and Anibal Chico and have never seen anything about retorquing the heads in their instructions.
I know (2) retired VW trained mechanics and never head them talk about routinely retorqueing heads.
Doesn't seem very common to me.
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Glenn
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vwjetboat
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Joined: May 11, 2017
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Location: Florida
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| Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 1:20 pm Post subject: Re: Re torque head studs? |
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| sounds like you do have a lot of experience and been around bugs a lot. I find it hard to believe you never heard a bug engine with a head popping.. |
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Glenn
Mr. 010
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| Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 1:32 pm Post subject: Re: Re torque head studs? |
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| vwjetboat wrote: |
| sounds like you do have a lot of experience and been around bugs a lot. I find it hard to believe you never heard a bug engine with a head popping.. |
I have... usually they are abused and overheated on a regular basis. Most have heads studs that are pulling out and retorqueing them is a band-aid... they'll continue to pull. At that point most need a top end rebuild with new p/c and a valve job if the heads don't have sunken valve seats or cracks.
I'm working on 3 engines at the moment, all needing top end rebuilds. Non has loose heads studs.
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Glenn
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vwjetboat
Samba Member
Joined: May 11, 2017
Posts: 1732
Location: Florida
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| Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 1:40 pm Post subject: Re: Re torque head studs? |
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| Glenn wrote: |
| vwjetboat wrote: |
| sounds like you do have a lot of experience and been around bugs a lot. I find it hard to believe you never heard a bug engine with a head popping.. |
I have... usually they are abused and overheated on a regular basis. Most have heads studs that are pulling out and retorqueing them is a band-aid... they'll continue to pull. At that point most need a top end rebuild with new p/c and a valve job if the heads don't have sunken valve seats or cracks.
I'm working on 3 engines at the moment, all needing top end rebuilds. Non has loose heads studs. |
not trying to argue with you.. I am talking from a business stand point. Someone comes in you have no clue who they are.. they want a tune up.. complete.. to us. this included oil change. check end play by hand of course.. tighten gen belt along with the normal plugs wires cap rotor points and condenser timing re-torq of lower head studs.. gently of course.. and do a compression test.. and let customer know condition of engine. .. If the valve lash is off by more then normal.. something is going on.. is the head loose? takes only a minute to check.. and that is my point.. period.. not arguing.. |
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stanthedog
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Joined: October 11, 2006
Posts: 357
Location: Portland,oregon.
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| Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 1:46 pm Post subject: Re: Re torque head studs? |
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| My brother had a 67 bug with a new 1835. He drove it for about a month when it started losing power, thinking it needed a tuneup he went to adjust the valves and the heads were just sloppy loose, retorqued, ran great for another month, same thing. No case savers! |
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Glenn
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76884
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| Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 1:50 pm Post subject: Re: Re torque head studs? |
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| vwjetboat wrote: |
| Glenn wrote: |
| vwjetboat wrote: |
| sounds like you do have a lot of experience and been around bugs a lot. I find it hard to believe you never heard a bug engine with a head popping.. |
I have... usually they are abused and overheated on a regular basis. Most have heads studs that are pulling out and retorqueing them is a band-aid... they'll continue to pull. At that point most need a top end rebuild with new p/c and a valve job if the heads don't have sunken valve seats or cracks.
I'm working on 3 engines at the moment, all needing top end rebuilds. Non has loose heads studs. |
not trying to argue with you.. I am talking from a business stand point. Someone comes in you have no clue who they are.. they want a tune up.. complete.. to us. this included oil change. check end play by hand of course.. tighten gen belt along with the normal plugs wires cap rotor points and condenser timing re-torq of lower head studs.. gently of course.. and do a compression test.. and let customer know condition of engine. .. If the valve lash is off by more then normal.. something is going on.. is the head loose? takes only a minute to check.. and that is my point.. period.. not arguing.. |
Sounds like turning a $100 tuneup into a $1000+ job.
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Glenn
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Glenn
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76884
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 1:50 pm Post subject: Re: Re torque head studs? |
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| stanthedog wrote: |
| My brother had a 67 bug with a new 1835. He drove it for about a month when it started losing power, thinking it needed a tuneup he went to adjust the valves and the heads were just sloppy loose, retorqued, ran great for another month, same thing. No case savers! |
The studs are pulling out and retorqueing is a waste of time.
The case is bad.
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Glenn
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vwjetboat
Samba Member
Joined: May 11, 2017
Posts: 1732
Location: Florida
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| Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 1:53 pm Post subject: Re: Re torque head studs? |
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| Glenn wrote: |
| vwjetboat wrote: |
| Glenn wrote: |
| vwjetboat wrote: |
| sounds like you do have a lot of experience and been around bugs a lot. I find it hard to believe you never heard a bug engine with a head popping.. |
I have... usually they are abused and overheated on a regular basis. Most have heads studs that are pulling out and retorqueing them is a band-aid... they'll continue to pull. At that point most need a top end rebuild with new p/c and a valve job if the heads don't have sunken valve seats or cracks.
I'm working on 3 engines at the moment, all needing top end rebuilds. Non has loose heads studs. |
not trying to argue with you.. I am talking from a business stand point. Someone comes in you have no clue who they are.. they want a tune up.. complete.. to us. this included oil change. check end play by hand of course.. tighten gen belt along with the normal plugs wires cap rotor points and condenser timing re-torq of lower head studs.. gently of course.. and do a compression test.. and let customer know condition of engine. .. If the valve lash is off by more then normal.. something is going on.. is the head loose? takes only a minute to check.. and that is my point.. period.. not arguing.. |
Sounds like turning a $100 tuneup into a $1000+ job. |
Actually no.. only IF there are issues.. this is why my boss had us check.. he would rather inform them later down road you will have and issue.. I have seen engines torn apart and heads were 100% trash.. there goes 500 bucks that could have been saved had the heads not been run loose.. its called doing a good service... |
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xzener
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Joined: June 03, 2006
Posts: 1777
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| Posted: Fri May 26, 2017 1:59 pm Post subject: Re: Re torque head studs? |
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My mechanic (70 year old classic VW guru) recommended me to replace a #3 head bolt because of looseness... The motor is out, am I able to do this without a complete tear down??
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