Who is running an eaton blower?

[riva]

Is there anybody out there running an m45, m62 or m90 on one of these aircooled 4's? Most of the samba blower threads I have searched out are for Judson or Aisin chargers. I would love to get some reviews or data on combining scrapyard eatons to aircooled 4's. Numbers support it possibly being a good match.

Below is a video clip of a huge eaton mounted up, but no data. This is twice as large as an m45, but it is all I could find in video form.
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/5lhTYGBajf8

Below is an m45 map showing its happy place at 1.33 atmospheres and 120cfm to 150cfm. Seems most users run blowers well outside of their best use zone. 5psi for a 50 to 80 horse should work.

[Alstrup]

The one in the video is an M45 from a Rover Mini. It has a power window of up to about 200 hp (within reason- and with an intercooler.) It can do more on an efficient engine, but you come to a point where you develop more heat than power.
Superchargers are - reasonably easy to install on most existing engines. Lots of different options. done right they DO give you a massive boost in power and especially torque in the lower to mid rpm. The DOWNSIDE is that you have to pull the charger all the time, so your fuel efficiency drops dramaticly. A guy over here thought up a way to use the built in recirculation system so the charger uses its own air on low- or no boost. That helps a great deal on the efficiency, but it will never be good.
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[clonebug]

Blowers heat the air 100% of the time the engine is running. An intercooler is needed to keep the IAT's reasonable.
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[riva]

The factory Eatons I have seen in the yard have a built in bypass. Would be silly to not use it. Was more interested in data regarding the particular case of an oversized charger on a low output engine. It seems from the available information that everybody goes the complete opposite way with blower sizing.

I had assumed the above video was of an m90 rather than an m45 based on appearance. Maybe I'm wrong.

[BFB]

Were you saying 5psi should get you 50 - 80 horse?
Biggest downside i saw when I researched putting an m-90 on a vw , or anything really, was that it takes 50hp just to turn it at peak boost. Not as big of a deal if the engine your putting it on already puts out 150hp or so, but really big deal when talking about putting it on an engine that only makes 50hp to start with
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[riva]

Gotcha, yes you have a good point. I am curious what happens to those parasitic losses when under-spinning a larger twin screw on a low output engine. Maybe they still do eat lots of energy even when mated to a low output engine? The guys running the small Aisins 500cc units seem to have no problem over-spinning them. That is what made me think of this. I wish to find data on the reverse to compare and contrast. The m45 is 740cc, the m62 is 1000cc, these sizes seem a much better fit for keeping rotor speed down.

What I meant by 50-80 was, start with an engine in that range. Say a 65hp normally apserated engine for a total 1.3 atmospheres and 1.3x hp. 85hp total. This is the 65 to 70% efficiency sweet spot of these blowers which nobody ever uses them in. Everybody who runs a twin screw runs them ragged off on the top right edge of map.. Then they complain about heat. Maybe diy is the only way to get data down on the left side.

[Alstrup]

1. Even the M45 on a stock 1600 apart from tighter deck and HD springs, and an M45 boosting 0,7 bar increased the intake heat to to over 75C w.o intercooler.
2. The bypass doesnt work very well in its stock form. Even on the Rovers and the Mercedes C180, with all the 2000 era electronics it wasnt perfect. But, it can be made to work well on an ACVW with a little constructive thinking.
3. Even with the modernised bypass (read simplifying it) the fuel economy sucks because there mere friction of the charger aids relatively much to what is needed for a normal cruise.
4. Even a stockish 1600 like the one mentioned above, which was the first M45 build I was involved with in the tuning stages. (The customer built it) pulled about 115 hp/ 185 Nm with 0,8 bar - and through an intercooler.
5. The last one I was involved in I built the entire engine, but the customer built the charger set up. It was a 1600 cc with a CB 2234 cam on 110 LC ported stock heads, 8,5 CR. Blow through a modified 34 Solex. Locked 009 with a Black box controller and a 1½" CSP Super comp exhaust It ended out at 135 hp and a little over 200 Nm @ 0,8 bar. (If memory serves, geared 1,6-1. Maybe a little higher)
5. If you use f.i. an M62 on say a 1776 displacement and then want to run low boost say 0,5 to get around 130 hp You WILL naturally reduce the intake temps, but not as much as one would think due to the extra scroller area, so there is more area to heat up the air. Also, you will STILL have to pull the charger, even with a functioning bypass.

If you are ready to accept these "downsides" the positive side of it is that with a charger you get instant power at almost any rpm. It is less complicated to build than a turbo engine. But as well as with a turbo engine the next thing is to understand, and have full controll over your ignition timing. If you don´t it can be a very short lived success.

It has a distinctive sound. some love it, others hate it. Thats a personal thing.
Carry on

'One of the reasons there are so few charged engines around here and in most of Europe is, that it is illegal unless you follow very specific and complicated proceedures. So people just don´t.
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[riva]

Double the aluminum to charge air contact surface with a slow 1000cc versus the faster spinning 500cc, that is true. Appreciate sharing your experience.

I am watching about different types of factory electronically controlled clutches now. Even more complexity one could try to throw at both the inefficiency and heat issues.. Maybe require a WOT switch signal to lock it up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-O5_LfeT2c

[Wreck]

I've an M90 off a ford sitting under the work bench , I had the idea of a simple bypass coupled to the throttle cable , ie full bypass at cruise/idle bypassing to the exhaust system so as not to recirculate hot air then closing off to what ever boost level I want to run at WOT . only running low boost on a high compression engine . After feeling the weight and realising the strength of the mounts needed to secure it ,I think it will get sold on.
This guy is doing some interesting stuff with an electrically driven pro charger type supercharger .
So no parasite power loss and no exhaust restriction .I've played with these hobby brushless motors and controllers for years, Not cheap for the big power stuff required . The advantage we have over his guys is a very big cooling fan that can be used to keep the electronics cool .

https://www.youtube.com/@AlexLTDLX/videos

[DesertSasquatchXploration]

I messed around with my regal GS for years great learning car.

Alstrup is correct I spent most of my time building timing and fuel tables you need complete control. The power on demand was sooo much fun overall the blowers do last a very long time once fully rebuilt that cost Money now your cheap junk yard blower is no so cheap. There's a reason its in the junk yard.
They are heavy and very inefficient no seal between the rotor and case it was a cheap production blower. Plus every used unit is going to leak gear oil past the seals into the outlet side of the blower. To replace the seals and retime the rotors correctly is not something you can do. The snout rebuild you can do but that's only half the job.

The bypass valve was a joke it was really more of a safety feature so it would stay running if you lost a belt. The output temps are very high I did a small intercooler and water injection to get 18degs of advance with the smaller pulleys only in winter summer time forget it, even with all that it ate a belt every three weeks the power needed to run them is nuts I even made a second tensioner just for the small pulleys to keep belt slip under control.

[riva]

Sounds like these eatons are a headache.

What kind of power and boost were you using with the m90?

I've been keeping up with alex's remotely powered supercharging for a while now also. I think for something like an m45 on 0.3 bar connected to a 65 horsepower engine, it could done for 10 to 20% of the budget he has into his.

[DesertSasquatchXploration]

the m45 for sure the m90 is way to big
I got up to 18psi Could just barely hang with the stock 430hp mustangs and Camaros from 2015ish it would get the start and slowly fall behind. The heat soak was so bad you had one shot. The Thunder-chicken with the factory air to air intercooler was a far better setup I had this goofy thing with a rv shower pump and a 1 inch heater core under the blower

[DesertSasquatchXploration]

https://zzperformance.com/

http://intense-racing.com/

These are the two big dogs in the Eaton blower business

[riva]

This is a new one for me, an m24 on a bus. I have not heard of m24.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbFxhdw8MpU

This is also a new one to me, a 90 degree belt drive. I had no idea this was possible. If it can be made reliable, it certainly opens up some alternate mounting options for a large case supercharger.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/NeykGTB0AE8

[DesertSasquatchXploration]

Mini or excuse me BMW used a R50,52 and 53 Blower when the new mini came out then they switched to turbos. That was made for a 1.6L motor perfect match. I did use a intercooler of course.

Funny He has the vacuum advance hooked up would pressure in the carb still give a vacuum signal? I guess if you set the timing low enough it could work.

[riva]

M24 I assume means 24 cubic inch or 400cc. The blower sizing people tend to use for these builds is kind of baffling to me.

Besides packaging and cost, are there any big drawbacks to running an oversized supercharger? One always has the option to spin slower. Slower means less parasitic loss and slower means less heat and less stress on components. One could run a Kenny Bell 2800cc blower and simply spin it slow enough where it is a match for a 1776cc engine. Could you not? It would weigh as much as the engine, but is there some technical reason this could not function well?

Here is a belt drive link I found interesting below, which could aid in fitting a large blower.

https://www.old-engine.com/belts2.htm

I found this information on over sized blowers interesting:

https://helpcenter.jegs.com/hc/en-us/articles/115012012827-Superchargers-

'A slow turning blower, especially a larger one like a 6-71, would have a lot of low speed "leakage" of boost pressure past the clearances between the rotors and the blower case. This leakage reduces low speed boost pressure, with a resultant decrease in the amount of additional power produced. This is why it is important to have a blower that is sized in relationship to the engine displacement.'

[riva]

Here is another way to get the performance of a larger blower, use two. Almost looks like four because of the reflection.

Pic grabbed from facbooks, not my photo.

[Lo Cash John]

Remember, blower drive belts put a severe lateral load on the crank. My concern with trying to get "real" horsepower from a blower is the pathetically small #4 main bearing and the single woodruff key in the crank. The bearing is not very big and neither is the crank, really.

Also it has a factory oil restrictor to keep it from puking oil from the case once it becomes severely warn.

My list of priorities would be to "sand seal" the case and then remove the factory oil restriction. It may pay to improve the oil drain back channel as well.

Next I'd add a second woodruff key 90* relative to the factory position.

From there, start experimenting and see what happens. Cracking the case for regular bearing inspections will be necessary until you figure out what the limits are.

Maybe see with the experimental aircraft guys do? I believe a number of those engine companies modify the case for a larger #4 bearing and matching crank with larger snout.
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Lo cash john
Exactly what I was thinking.
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[clonebug]

By the time you spend all that money you might as well go turbo......and for low end torque to match the blower you could do a twin turbo for cheaper or the same price.
IAT temps are a major issue with blowers so you would be money ahead to get a timing retard based ignition system. By that time you might as well buy an ECU capable of crankfired timing and fuel injection.

With a turbo you can plumb a decent intercooler and/or W/I system in and use the ECU to add the water at higher intake temps.

The great thing about a turbo is it doesn't take crank power to run it and it only heats the air when you are on boost.

You can also just size the turbo for the low to mid range performance and give up a little at the top end.......that is basically what a blower will do.

You do get into the boost addiction problem though......so have fun resisting that......
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