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67rustavenger 
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Joined: February 24, 2015
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Location: Oregon
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 Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 10:49 am Post subject: Worn oil pump drive shaft. |
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I am sure that this has been covered here many times.
I have a worn oil pump drive shaft. This is on a pump body of unknown manufacturer. When driving to work last night I looked down at the dash and saw the green light of death staring me in the face.
Today I took the filter off and cranked the engine in an effort to determine if I had a blockage in an oil galley. No oil pumped from the filter housing. So I pulled the pump cover and and the drive gear came out with the cover. I suspect that was due to hydraulic lock as the cover supports the ends of the drive shaft and idler shaft. I pushed the drive gear back into the pump body and found that the gear spun freely when fully inserted into the pump body.
The engine has always had good oil pressure when cruising. The pressure has been around 45+ at hiway speeds.
So I'm kind of puzzled as to what caused the pump drive shaft to wear. the cam slot is undamaged.
Is the pump size determined by the depth of the pump or the gears?
Puzzled.
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Max Welton
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67rustavenger
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Joined: February 24, 2015
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Location: Oregon
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| Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 11:24 am Post subject: Re: Worn oil pump drive shaft. |
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Small scratches on the tips of the gears. But no FOD.
Someone suggested that maybe the gear walked out on the shaft. But if that were the case there would be a deep scar on the pump cover. I only see very faint outlines on the cover like the builder or someone at one time had hand spun the drive shaft with the pump dry. Just a revolution or two is all I can detect.
Thanks for your input.
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Max Welton
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67rustavenger
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Joined: February 24, 2015
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Location: Oregon
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| Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 12:34 pm Post subject: Re: Worn oil pump drive shaft. |
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| Max Welton wrote: |
| I guess it's possible the engagement depth wasn't set right. I can't tell from the picture. If it's too shallow the pressure isn't spread out the way it should be. |
I agree that this may be the issue. Odd that the builder was very careful when building this engine.
If I can avoid taking it apart. Is there a way to measure the engagement depth of the drive without splitting the case? This engine has a flat cam gear AFAICT.
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I have learned over the years.
Cheap parts are gonna disappoint you.
Buy Once, Cry Once!
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mikedjames
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Joined: July 02, 2012
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Location: Hamble, Hampshire, UK
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| Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 12:51 pm Post subject: Re: Worn oil pump drive shaft. |
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Look at the shaft in the driven gear.. it is protruding from the top of the gear. It has been hammered up as the wear finally tapered the end of the drive tang in the end of the cam shaft.
The cover is probably bent if its a steel one.
You could always measure the depth from the face of the pump to the surface of the cam gear and the depth of the slot in the cam gear , get another pump as that one probably has a worn body matching the grooves in the gears and a bent cover.
Then you can adjust the protrusion of the drive shaft by tapping it in or out so it matches the cam gear.
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67rustavenger
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Joined: February 24, 2015
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Location: Oregon
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| Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 1:05 pm Post subject: Re: Worn oil pump drive shaft. |
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The pump was made so that the drive shaft protruded into a matching boss in the pump cover. It's a filter pump. There are no scars on the pump cover from the drive or idle gear rubbing against the cover.
I know I need a new pump.
What I don't know is the size of the current pump. And how to measure the insertion depth of the drive tang into the camshaft without tearing down the engine.
Thanks for your input.
_________________
I have learned over the years.
Cheap parts are gonna disappoint you.
Buy Once, Cry Once!
There's never enough time to do it right the first time. But there's always enough time to do it thrice.
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
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Max Welton
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67rustavenger
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| Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 1:22 pm Post subject: Re: Worn oil pump drive shaft. |
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Inside the filter pump cover.
The nasty outside of the pump cover.
I tried to get a pic of the inside of the pump but it got kicked back when I uploaded it. I'll try again later. I need to get ready for work.
_________________
I have learned over the years.
Cheap parts are gonna disappoint you.
Buy Once, Cry Once!
There's never enough time to do it right the first time. But there's always enough time to do it thrice.
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
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KTPhil
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Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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| Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 1:27 pm Post subject: Re: Worn oil pump drive shaft. |
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Do you have excess endplay in your cam/bearings? Check it with the pump body out. Maybe the lack of oil previously overheated the cam thrust bearing and the shoulder let go. Then the cam moved forward, and dis-engaged the oil pump.
Last edited by KTPhil on Thu Jun 01, 2017 1:38 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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67rustavenger
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Location: Oregon
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| Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 1:32 pm Post subject: Re: Worn oil pump drive shaft. |
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| KTPhil wrote: |
| Do you have excess endplay in your cam/bearings? Check it with the pump body out. Maybe the lack of oil previously overheated the cam thrust bearing and the shoulder let go. Then the cam moves forward, and dis-engaged the oil pump. |
I'll have to check that tomorrow. I don't have a pump puller. YET.
But that is an interesting thought.
Thanks for your input.
_________________
I have learned over the years.
Cheap parts are gonna disappoint you.
Buy Once, Cry Once!
There's never enough time to do it right the first time. But there's always enough time to do it thrice.
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
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Pruneman99
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Location: Oceanside
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| Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 1:50 pm Post subject: Re: Worn oil pump drive shaft. |
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| 67rustavenger wrote: |
| The pump was made so that the drive shaft protruded into a matching boss in the pump cover. It's a filter pump. |
You left this detail out on your other thread.
Regardless, it seems as the shaft slid through the gear causing very little engagement in the cam slot. With so little engagement, it will shear the end like that. The gear is just a press fit and can slip especially with the so-so aftermarket pumps.
Pull your pump and check the cam thrust bearing. If it's ok, set the depth of the new gear into the cam slot and tack weld the gear to the shaft so it can't walk out again. |
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Pruneman99
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jason
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| Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 2:03 pm Post subject: Re: Worn oil pump drive shaft. |
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| Measure the gear you have. You can see where it was riding to determine depth. Looks like wrong gear. If you push it back to where it needs to go, looks like it wont be in cover hole. Bigger pumps are harder on the shaft there too. |
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I Ride Sand
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Joined: June 07, 2012
Posts: 567
Location: utah
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| Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 2:15 pm Post subject: Re: Worn oil pump drive shaft. |
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| Pruneman99 wrote: |
| 67rustavenger wrote: |
| The pump was made so that the drive shaft protruded into a matching boss in the pump cover. It's a filter pump. |
You left this detail out on your other thread.
Regardless, it seems as the shaft slid through the gear causing very little engagement in the cam slot. With so little engagement, it will shear the end like that. The gear is just a press fit and can slip especially with the so-so aftermarket pumps.
Pull your pump and check the cam thrust bearing. If it's ok, set the depth of the new gear into the cam slot and tack weld the gear to the shaft so it can't walk out again. |
i had one that had the shaft pressed in that was tightening against the camshaft and binding. we pulled the gear, placed it on an anvil on top of an 00 aluminum plate, and smacked it with a brass hammer. it moved it enough to work, and it kinda scared me  . one smack and it moved a lot. but, we threw it in anyway, the case was junk, and pretty much everything used. a spare parts motor to get the baja on the road while we build the 1904 for it. all we really bought was a set of the cheapest P&C we could find, and all new bearings and pump. even a used cam and (matched) lifters
that motor has ~15000 miles on it. not saying the pump is ideal, but it did work.
in hindsight, a tack would have been a good idea. oh well, that engine will be retired soon, and probably tore down/inspected to see how it held up.
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Cusser
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| Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 2:49 pm Post subject: Re: Worn oil pump drive shaft. |
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Response by me to your other thread:
| 67rustavenger wrote: |
Found the problem.
I have never had one do this.
I suppose I need a new filter pump in order to get good pump gears again.
Bummer! |
Hmmm - might that be an oil pump that was made for flat camshaft gear (3-rivet) used in an engine with a dished 4-rivet camshaft gear? Because I've seen that same thing happen before.
The shorter gear from the earlier pump WILL work fine for a while until it wears away like in your photo. For the one I found where this had happened, had run for a few years before it suddenly went out and oil pressure went to zero. The fix for that in that instance was a replacement gear for a dished camshaft pump (scavenged from a new basic oil pump for dished cam that had same gear length).
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[email protected]
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| Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 3:27 pm Post subject: Re: Worn oil pump drive shaft. |
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drive depth looks inadequate. Should be .225-.275".
Also, what oil was used. They will often do this with the 20-50 grease that a lot of guys refuse to change from. The amount of power to drive that grease thru the filter and galleys is massive, and takes a toll on the drive tang.
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modok
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| Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 4:49 pm Post subject: Re: Worn oil pump drive shaft. |
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Check to see that the drive is IN_LINE with the cam.
An even more remote possibility is the slot is off center in the cam.
I built many engines before I ever thought to check, but now I check every time. Every time. |
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turbotype1
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| Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 5:09 pm Post subject: Re: Worn oil pump drive shaft. |
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| 67rustavenger wrote: |
If I can avoid taking it apart. Is there a way to measure the engagement depth of the drive without splitting the case? |
Just slide the shaft into the pump, but turn it so it won't engage the slot in the cam. Then measure how far the gear is sticking out of the pump body.
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67rustavenger
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| Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 5:19 pm Post subject: Re: Worn oil pump drive shaft. |
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| [email protected] wrote: |
drive depth looks inadequate. Should be .225-.275".
Also, what oil was used. They will often do this with the 20-50 grease that a lot of guys refuse to change from. The amount of power to drive that grease thru the filter and galleys is massive, and takes a toll on the drive tang. |
10w/30w synthetic. Sorry for the short answer.
I don't normally post fom a pbone.
Thanks a for the input.
_________________
I have learned over the years.
Cheap parts are gonna disappoint you.
Buy Once, Cry Once!
There's never enough time to do it right the first time. But there's always enough time to do it thrice.
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
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