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doc73
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Joined: June 26, 2004
Posts: 318
Location: Ohio
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 Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 10:59 am Post subject: EMPI front disc brake issues |
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Installed Empi's lowered front disc brake kit. Pretty decent kit. Getting all the air out was problematic. The calipers sit down so low, I had to remove it from the spindle and hold it on top of the rotor to get all the air out. Or did I get it all out. Installed them last Thursday and then headed to Effingham for the the Mid America motorworks FUNFEST show on Friday. During the trip they started to pull to the right and now there seems to be a pulsing during the stopping. Air? Could the back drum brakes be the source of my pulling? The car didnt pull like this before the discs.
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Pruneman99
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Joined: February 22, 2012
Posts: 5013
Location: Oceanside
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| Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 12:41 pm Post subject: Re: EMPI front disc brake issues |
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| Pulling is generally a problem with the fronts not supplying equal pressure to the rotors. Could be air in the lines, or a sticking wheel cylinder. Is the pedal mushy or hard? Mushy is usually caused by air. Pulsing is usually warped rotors. For a brand new kit, id hope not though. You can also check the rotor surfaces for grease contamination, or loose wheel bearings. |
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planenut
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Joined: April 12, 2012
Posts: 334
Location: Georgia
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| Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 2:05 pm Post subject: Re: EMPI front disc brake issues |
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| Something else to look for, is the flexible lines. Are they new with the kit? Sometimes old ones are swollen and deliver different fluid flow from one side to the other. Also, if the float on pins, make sure one isn't stuck. |
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Starbucket
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Joined: April 30, 2007
Posts: 4023
Location: WA
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| Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 2:23 pm Post subject: Re: EMPI front disc brake issues |
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| Did you start the bleeding from the right rear? New brakes want new hoses. How did you bleed them? Finally did you torque the spindle nuts to 20 ft/lbs then back off till wheel spun freely, the bearings may not have been seated. |
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doc73
Samba Member
Joined: June 26, 2004
Posts: 318
Location: Ohio
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| Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 7:04 am Post subject: Re: EMPI front disc brake issues |
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I went through the entire system again last night and there doesn't seem to be any air in the lines. I did start the bleeding from the rear, with pads adjusted out. Pedal is firm. There was excessive grease on the back sides of the rotors. But I packed the hubs full it, so thats on me. I didn't replace the lines. At a visual inspection they are clean, dry and free of cracks. Could this really be my culprit? Should I go braided hose? I'm not sure when the pulsing started but they were not like that the first day of driving with them.
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TinCanFab
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Joined: April 04, 2006
Posts: 2743
Location: Waterford, California
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| Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 7:22 am Post subject: Re: EMPI front disc brake issues |
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| doc73 wrote: |
| I went through the entire system again last night and there doesn't seem to be any air in the lines. I did start the bleeding from the rear, with pads adjusted out. Pedal is firm. There was excessive grease on the back sides of the rotors. But I packed the hubs full it, so thats on me. I didn't replace the lines. At a visual inspection they are clean, dry and free of cracks. Could this really be my culprit? Should I go braided hose? I'm not sure when the pulsing started but they were not like that the first day of driving with them. |
If your pedal feels firm and you are having problems at all with brakes, replace all soft lines. Visual inspection means nothing because you can't tell their condition on the inside. Just search brake topics and see how many times bad soft lines cause issues. I like Teflon hoses because they can't swell up over time, but fresh rubber hoses work fine too.
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http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=658092 |
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Pruneman99
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Joined: February 22, 2012
Posts: 5013
Location: Oceanside
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| Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 9:07 am Post subject: Re: EMPI front disc brake issues |
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The pulsing and pulling was probably due to grease contamination like you found. You have to be extra careful when putting rotors on that they are CLEAN. Brakes are one of the only things on your car that needs friction to make heat. Does your kit have grease caps to cover the bearings? If not, this will happen again in short order. There is no such thing as "excessive" grease on a rotor. ANY grease is excessive. Use a break cleaner spray and clean paper towels to get it ALL off. You will probably need to change your break pads now as they are probably ruined. Hopefully you didn't damage the rotors.
New soft lines are always a good idea. You don't have to get exotic. |
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Q-Dog
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Location: Sunset, Louisiana
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| Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 10:32 am Post subject: Re: EMPI front disc brake issues |
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You can't inspect a brake line from the outside.
Worse case scenario: a bad brake line caused a brake to hang up while driving and overheated a drum or rotor. That could definitely cause some warpage.
You can isolate which end of the car has the pulsing problem by trying to stop the car with the parking brake. Find a quiet road or large parking lot and try to stop the car while coasting at about 25mph.
If you were sloppy and got grease on the braking surfaces, you may need to replace the pads/shoes.
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Brian
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doc73
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Joined: June 26, 2004
Posts: 318
Location: Ohio
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| Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 10:57 am Post subject: Re: EMPI front disc brake issues |
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I guess what I should have said was, I found a lot of grease on the back side of the rotor due to my stuffing the crap out of the hub.
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slalombuggy
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Location: Canada
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| Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 5:08 pm Post subject: Re: EMPI front disc brake issues |
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IF there was grease on the braking surface, your pads are ruined, replace them.
Air in the lines will not cause pulsing that is warped drums or rotors. As said above try stopping with the park brake to isolate it. Also if the steering wheel shakes when you use the brakes it is an indicator the fronts are warped.
brad |
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doc73
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Posts: 318
Location: Ohio
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| Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 10:45 am Post subject: Re: EMPI front disc brake issues |
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Drove the car again yesterday. The pulling doesn't seem to be there or as noticeable when I first start driving. It seems to increase up to a certain point as things get moving and get warmed up.
I've yet to change the soft lines. The pedal is firm and it stops fine. Just pulls a little to much to one side.
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Q-Dog
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Location: Sunset, Louisiana
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| Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 11:05 am Post subject: Re: EMPI front disc brake issues |
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| doc73 wrote: |
Drove the car again yesterday. The pulling doesn't seem to be there or as noticeable when I first start driving. It seems to increase up to a certain point as things get moving and get warmed up.
I've yet to change the soft lines. The pedal is firm and it stops fine. Just pulls a little to much to one side. |
This is the classic symptom of bad flex lines. The inside of the lines swell shut. Pushing the pedal can force fluid through but the return springs on the brake shoes are not strong enough to push the fluid back when you release the pedal.
Well, I suppose it could also be a bad wheel cylinder, but if the flex lines are more than 10 years old I would change them and see if that fixes the problem.
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doc73
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| Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 11:10 am Post subject: Re: EMPI front disc brake issues |
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Another thing I just read about is the need for a residual valve. Do I need it with my front disc/rear drum set up? Brakes haven't locked up on me at all. I thought you only needed that on a car with all disc brakes.
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Q-Dog
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| Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 11:14 am Post subject: Re: EMPI front disc brake issues |
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Fix known problems first!
Change the flex lines and see what happens. All the current information suggests you overheated the rotors because you got cheap and didn't replace the flex lines when you installed the brakes. All these kits should come with new lines.
Another clue. Getting the rotors really hot will make the grease come out all over. Sounds like your problem.
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doc73
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| Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 11:59 am Post subject: Re: EMPI front disc brake issues |
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Thanks Q-DOG. I didn't get cheap, just a little lazy. I've replaced modern rotors and calipers before and didn't change the brake lines with no problems. The lines on my bug weren't that old, so I thought I could get away without changing these because they visually looked good and have not had heavy use.
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doc73
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| Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 12:03 pm Post subject: Re: EMPI front disc brake issues |
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At this point, I have a rear drum that the stud for the lug stripped out and need a new one. The other side is leaking gear oil. The wife has given me the go ahead to buy a rear disc brake kit. Should I pull the trigger? Then Ill replace all lines and seals!
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Starbucket
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| Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 12:35 pm Post subject: Re: EMPI front disc brake issues |
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| The reason the car didn't pull with the drums on it is drums have RETURN SPRINGS and disk brakes don't, so the fluid needs a clear return path or the pads will drag if the line/s are swollen closed and heat the rotor/s causing fade which you feel as pulling. Replace the lines and get the front end working first before you add more problems to confuse things. Disk/drum is the best combo for your lite car unless you are racing it. |
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Pruneman99
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Location: Oceanside
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| Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 2:50 pm Post subject: Re: EMPI front disc brake issues |
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| Rear drums and front disks are plenty good for a street car. Just rebuild the rears and go back and fix the fronts. Save the cash for other goodies. |
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doc73
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Posts: 318
Location: Ohio
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| Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 10:10 am Post subject: Re: EMPI front disc brake issues |
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Goodies like a turbo!
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doc73
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| Posted: Sun Jun 25, 2017 5:25 pm Post subject: Re: EMPI front disc brake issues |
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So after all the replacing the soft lines and the bleeding the brakes, it still freakin pulls! Same direction. I'm betting on sticky cylinder at this point but how do I trouble shoot that? guess I could temporarily switch the calipers to see if the symptom follows.
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