Leak from crank pulley and front seal--double whammy!

[Tim Donahoe]

My wife and I took a 160-mile round trip this Saturday, 95% freeway speeds of 65-72 mph. Oil temperature was fine (I have a very accurate thermometer from aircooled.net). But there was oil coming from in front of the crank, as well as the front seal. In fact, I lost 1/2 quart during the trip.

I have a stock crank pulley, so I don't think that's the issue--especially since I have quite a bit of oil dripping from the front seal also.

The air cleaner is stock for the 1600 dual-relief case, and I have the oil-filler breather hooked up to it. But ... the oil filler is one of those aftermarket chrome-looking jobs with what appears to be a somewhat smaller breather hose than the stock oil filler provides. Since the PO gave me a stash of parts when I bought the bug, I have the original oil filler, which I'm going to install, since I'm hoping the smaller diameter hose on the aftermarket oil filler was the cause of the oil blow by.

My compression (about 2000 miles ago) was very good. So, I'm hoping the blow by was caused by the smaller diameter hose, coming from the oil filler while going on a long freeway cruise.

So, I have a question. When installing the stock oil filler, is there some kind of gasket that sits between the alternator stand and the side of the oil filler that mates with the stand?

Tim
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Richard O'Brien

[VW_Jimbo]

That would seem to be a lot of 'blow by' to come out the front and rear crank areas. Typically with blow by, it is just the front which leaks badly! The rear is when that seal is compromised by the blow by, so a deformation was created by the blow by, if you will.

Sounds to me like the ring are shot. Not what you want to hear. The only other thing would be if the case were to be completely plugged up, no breather at all. Which I guess could be the case.

Have you checked the breather hose? It really does not need a very large hose to breath properly, if it is stock.

'Good" compression is a relative term. Sometimes, when the rings are shot, the oil in the crankcase gets sucks into the combustion chambers. This excessive oil in the chamber causes the compression readings to read normal to above normal. This is due to the oil 'sealing' the rings to the walls. When this happens a leak down test can be performed to confirm. You will get a lot of air shooting out every possible spot of the case and related components!

How many miles on the engine? Freeway? City? Racing? Sunday driver?
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Jimbo

There is never enough time to do it right the first time, but all the time necessary the second time!

[Tim Donahoe]

About 15 thousand miles on the engine. The PO had it rebuilt.

I got a stock oil filler. The breather outlet is twice the size of the aftermarket one I just removed. After lunch, I'm replacing that oil filler with the stock one.

Wish me luck.

Tim
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Richard O'Brien

[VW_Jimbo]

Good luck!

Stock oil filter?
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Jimbo

There is never enough time to do it right the first time, but all the time necessary the second time!

[Cusser]

[Buggeee]

[Tim Donahoe]

Cusser, yes, I have oil leaking (actually 1/4 quart on a 160 mile freeway-speed round trip--not 1/2 quart like I thought at first) from the main, flywheel seal, as well as the area at the crank pulley--on the forward side of the pulley. It's flinging a fine spray that I can't see while the engine is running, but I can see the effects on the interior of my deck lid. Not a lot of spray, but both seal areas are hinting at, either too much blow-by, or normal blow-by that hasn't been able to escape to my air cleaner, due to a hose connection on the aftermarket oil filler that is half as large in diameter as the stock oil filler.

I have a stock oil filler that I'm going to try. But if I still have the spray, I guess I have excessive blow by. The engine runs nice and strong on the freeway, however, and I don't seem to be burning oil.

I started the engine today and re-installed the aftermarket oil filler. I took off the cap and I felt some blow by; but I don't know if it was normal blow by, or excessive, because I've never dealt with this sort of issue before. When I revved up the engine with the oil filler lid off, it almost seemed as if it was sucking--not blowing, and the blow by tube seemed to not blow at all--even with the lid screwed back on. Very strange.

At idle, I could feel a little rush, but not as great as at about 2500 rpm.

And Buggeee, I went to Wolfgang International here in town and got the crush washer. They told me to put it between the gland nut and the oil filler body. I also got that stock oil filler tool. It's kind of neat.

Tim
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[Frodge]

Geez. Hopefully you could get this sorted out quickly and easily. Hope all goes well and its the filler tube. Is it possible the crankcase was overfilled?

[Jessechop]

I would wonder if it was over filled also

[67rustavenger]

Tim, just a thought. Have a look inside your air cleaner and see if the connection from the filler stand is blocked. It's weird that you have oil coming from both ends of the engine.
I have blow by coming through my filler and it is a pretty steady stream I can feel on my fingers at idle.
Do you have a small puddle under the bell housing when the car is parked?
_________________
I have learned over the years.
Cheap parts are gonna disappoint you.
Buy Once, Cry Once!

There's never enough time to do it right the first time. But there's always enough time to do it thrice.
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo!

[Tim Donahoe]

I wish the crankcase was overfilled. But I actually topped off the oil a few days before the trip. The oil level was right at the top line. Not over. I measure my oil level very carefully. Besides, I'm now 1/4 quart low. Even if I'd overfilled, why jettison the extra 1/4 quart?

I'm right around 15,000 miles since the PO bought a long block (I just checked; he didn't have his old engine rebuilt). That's way too early for rings to start failing. Tomorrow morning, I'll install the newly-painted stock oil filler (with a new, stock rubber elbow that is twice the ID of the crummy aftermarket one, and then we'll see what's up.

Tim
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Richard O'Brien

[air-h2o-air]

is your oil possibly gas contaminated and too thin?....like your fuel pump diaphram is putting gas into crankcase?

[Dwayne1m]

From the "for what it's worth" department, I replaced the oil fill neck on my 78 FI once with a "new" fill neck. I did not check the breather hole size of the new one. After a 10 mile drive I stopped for gas and oil was running out everywhere, especially around the crank pulley. The original breather hole size was about the size of my thumb. The new hole was much smaller. I put the original fill neck on and no more oil leakage.

[johneliot]

Tim, in response to your original question, I used this:

http://vwparts.aircooled.net/Breather-Tower-Gasket...proved.htm
_________________
John

There is no distinctly American criminal class - except Congress.
Mark Twain

69 bug - "The Grey Ghost"

[Tim Donahoe]

67rustavenger, I just now read your post. I have the plastic, paper-element air cleaner, and did not take the air cleaner apart to see if the breather nipple (or further in) was blocked. From the outside, it appears unblocked; but I did notice a strange cross pattern deep down the hole. I assumed it belonged there and will check it out tomorrow. It looks similar to a cross on the interior of a check valve, but I can't imagine why VW would put it in there. That would be great if it was--and it was inoperable ... and blocked .

Air-h2o-air, nope. No gas in my oil. I had that once a few years back, but back then the dipstick, not only smelled of fuel, the oil/fuel mixture was also magically above the top line of the dipstick.

First thing tomorrow, I'll take apart the air cleaner and inspect; then I'll install my newly painted OEM oil filler with its bigger orifice.

If this fails, I may check out my oil pressure and relief valves to see if they're opening, since I read in another post that a stuck valve can raise oil pressure. But when we stopped for a pee break at a rest stop--after driving about forty or so miles on the freeway--my oil temperature gauge read 200. I was driving from 65-72 mph Just before we stopped. Ambient temperature was in the mid-seventies. When we got back home, the oil temperature was only 180 (lower, no doubt, from driving the last five miles in town at around 40 mph). So this seems to say that my pressure and relief valves are opening fine and sending the oil to the cooler. So maybe I won't pull those valves until the last dog dies, after all.

Thanks for all the replies, guys,

Tim
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Richard O'Brien

[67rustavenger]

Tim, I assume that you were watching the NBA finals. Congrats to the GSW.
We troll the same forums(not intended as a bad thing) and you have valid advice and anecdotes much like I do. Maybe these younger guys can learn a thing or two from us older guys .

But in the interest of learning. Can you please post a pic of the cross that you speak of on your aircleaner?

As you may well know. I drive a 67 and have never owned a VW newer than a 70. But where I can help, I do so.

I hope that this is a simple fix and life goes on.
_________________
I have learned over the years.
Cheap parts are gonna disappoint you.
Buy Once, Cry Once!

There's never enough time to do it right the first time. But there's always enough time to do it thrice.
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo!

[Tim Donahoe]

67, I went out with a flashlight and checked out the air cleaner. The male nipple for the blow-by hose was not blocked in the least. I took the lid and Mahle filter off to check from the inside and no blockage.

The "cross" I spoke of was actually a simple thin bar that's located at the interior side of the male nipple. This bar is horizontal and divides the opening in half. At the middle of the bar, there is a small circle with a small hole, defining the circle ( to give the bar more rigidity, I suppose). The bar serves no purpose, as far as I can see. I suppose it might prevent a small snake that had somehow made its way from the alternator stand, or oil filler, from entering the air cleaner; but other than that, who knows. The other male nipple on the same side--the one for the charcoal canister hose--has no bar. It's just a straight shot.

I was really hoping for an obstruction in this part of the air cleaner, but maybe my OEM oil filler will do the trick.

Tim
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Richard O'Brien

[Tim Donahoe]

So, I installed the OEM oil filler with the larger breather tube. I also used the proper, larger diameter, elbow to connect the male oil-filler nipple to the air cleaner. Getting that gland nut started was not easy, but I have long fingers. So it was all good. I was afraid I'd drop the nut-installer tool into the neck of the alternator stand, but I was careful not to do that.

I started it up and drove about five miles. No leaks from the front seal or from the crank area. But I won't call it a success until I get the car on the freeway for a nice, long highway run. This Friday, I'm going to a shop in the next town. If the results remain positive, then I'll believe that the smaller breather orifice was the culprit. That, and freeway speeds--instead of just puttering around town, and short freeway time.

Tim
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Richard O'Brien

[Tim Donahoe]

Eighty-three degrees out this morning, and I took the freeway, going 67-70 mph, giving the bug a nice run.

Success! There was no sign of any spray in the engine compartment, or leakage around the crank pulley. Also, the hole between the transmission and engine, provided just one drop of oil when I got back and parked the bug. That's its normal amount of marking, and I'm very much okay with "normal"--at least as far as cars are concerned.

I've come to the conclusion that shiny, aftermarket straight-tube oil fillers do not provide adequate blow-by. The breather nipple on them is too small in diameter--half that of a good OEM breather. Also, the OEM oil filler has internal blow-by baffling, whereas the aftermarket fillers merely have a hole drilled in the side of the filler body.

It appears that no engine rebuild is in the near future for me.

Now, I've got to deal with a Honda del sol that's mysteriously losing coolant. I did a block tester test on it, and no hydrocarbons showed up in the test tube. No apparent leakage, either. It's all good, though. The bug has just saved me a lot of hassle.

Tim
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Let's do the Time Warp again!

Richard O'Brien

[Tom Butler]

Good stuff.

Glad you got it all sorted.
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