Type 4 for a sandrail...yay or nay?

[GreenImp]

I'm considering a buggy that has a type 4 engine in it. I'm well familiar with high performance type 1's, but know nothing more about type 4's other than that they exist. Can anyone tell me anything good or bad about them from an off-road/performance/sandrail point of view? Anything I should look out for? I've seen Raby's website and he builds some awesome type 4's, but his prices scare the heck out of me...should something go wrong with the one I may soon own.

This post MAY have been better off posted in the engine section, but I am specifically looking for info relating to off-road use (high revs, steep hills, protection from sand, etc.)

[YDBD]

This Guy:

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/profile.php?mode=viewprofile&u=240809

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=487021
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'56 pan Dune Buggy since '69
don't live in the past...but when I did:
'67 bug
'64 baja
'60 dune buggy
'73 Personenkraftwagen Type 182 "Thing"

[vwjetboat]

type 4 engines are way better but cost more too.. and not as many around.. but a good tuned 2.0 is around 100 hp nothing special .. just tuned good..

[Vanapplebomb]

I like them, but it is a personal preference kind of thing. I cut my teeth on the T1 like most people, but after dealing with my first couple T4 engines, I bagged the T1. I personaly feel the T4 is a much better foundation.

Don't let the prices of turn key T4 engines scare you off. What you pay for is a certainty of what you are getting. Some of the top T4 turn key builders probably have the better part of 1k hours in dyno work alone, and lots of experimenting with combos to make killer engines, and all that is a lot of overhead for them.

Now, if you have mechanical skills, access to tools, and a good working knowledge of engines, your golden. There is nothing complicated about a T4 engine. In fact, I would argue it is actually simpler in construction than a T1. Parts are NOT that more expensive than a T1 unless you need major work on or new cylinder heads. Honest, silverlines main bearings can be had online for 56 bucks, rod bearings for around 20, cam bearings around 25-30. It's a bit more than a T1, but not that much. I wouldn't get Mahle or KS mains (unless nos), I have measured a few new ones and some had problems being undersized on the OD. Long story short, if you stay modest on the build, it really doesn't work out to be much more than a similar displacement T1.

Good things about a T4 for off road, they have a seal of the rear of the crankshaft, not an oil slinger like the T1. The T4s out of the VW 411/412 and Porsche 914/912e (and possibly some early bus engines...72-73???) had oil baffles in the bottom with quality silicone seals that fit into slots cast into the case, so the oil stays put in the bottom where it belongs. In big T4 engines that require more oil flow, they can be modified to return oil to the sump faster, but for stock oil pumps it works more than well enough as is.

Everything is just a little bigger/beefier of T4 engines as well. Die cast aluminum cases are much stronger. Rods look like they came from a truck. Serious main bearings. heads have more cooling capacity. Etc etc.

Be aware that engines from busses used pistons with stupid large dishes and had lame compression...kinda a hot running lump of an engine really. The original engines had better compression and performance, also probably in better shape.

I am prejudice against the 2.0 engines. My bone with them is all three of the heads were not as durable as the 1.7 and 1.8. The 73-76 heads one the 914 crack around the plugs and in the exhaust port. I have yet to see a core that doesn't have at least one crack in at least one of those places. The bus and Vanagon heads were both slightly stronger in the combustion chamber, but seam to have more trouble with valve seat interfearance fits than the other heads...they also had the smallest valves go figure. My favorite are the 1.8 engines. Good heads, thickest cylinders of any air cooled vw, and easy to bore out cylinders to 96mm should you want to make it a 1911. That's a nice snappy engine with a good cam.

By the way, a factory 411 with a 1.7 engine made 80-82hp. Let's say you take a T1 and bore it out to 88mm, which puts you within 1cc of the 1.7 displacement... how much extra work would you have to do to the bored out T1 to get it to make 80hp...you get the point.
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1800 Type 4 Berrien 295

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=487021

[veeweeman]

I've been pondering the same thing for my own build...go type 4 or stay T1 ...the type 4 does have a lot more to offer you, more power, and oil filter, more oil capacity and a front pulley seal.

There were 3 reasons why I decided to not go t4...
Upright fan conversion $900.00+
Cylinder heads costs that of a good t1 reliable performance head
I only found 1 off road exhaust system that costs over $800 bucks.

Other than that I was fond of the t4 and wanted something different, but I changed my mind.
Good luck with your decision

[BFB]

i put a type 4 in a buggy i built last year. its a short wheel base "trail buggy" but still weighs 1700 lbs. the motor is a turbocharged 1700 bolted to a 3 rib with a 228 mm flywheel and 31" tires. i thought that it did great on the trails and could really lug it down if needed, motor was almost hard to stall. i kept the stock cooling as i wanted to make a storage tray above the motor, couldnt have done that as easy with a type 1. only thing i dont like so far is i lost a little ground clearance since the exhaust comes out the bottom of the head on type 4

[GreenImp]

Thanks to all who replied. I did buy the buggy. Here are the pics from the guys ad.

[GreenImp]

The engine is supposed to be a 2280cc w/200 HP, but no paperwork for it. I'm very skeptical about the claimed HP...especially when considering how common exaggerated HP claims are. It has Weber 44's (Made in Spain) and a Porsche style fan...that's about all I know so far. The engine spins fine but I have not heard it run (price was good enough that this did not matter).

As you can see in the pics, there are no rear shocks, axles, CV's.

I've got some work and learning ahead of me.

[pullstart]

That's a sweet ride...
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4 seater Appletree buggy, road legal with 002 IRS, 3x3 Appletree kit, 6" over Dan's beam with 10" towers and Fox 2.0 shocks, '00 Subaru EJ25 with KEP stage 3 clutch and KEP adapter plate.

my build page: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=662104&start=0

[Bashr52]

Any idea where the engine came from? That isn't a Bergman or Gex build is it?

[veeweeman]

If the price is right then you have a great start...that is a really nice looking buggy...the rear shocks and axles will set you back a few bucks but will make a solid investment...it doesn't look like you have a whole lot to do...the buggy looks pretty complete...I hope you didn't pass on the deal.