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airschooled
Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012
Posts: 12721
Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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 Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 1:55 pm Post subject: Re: Just how slow is an early bay? |
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Bingo! That's the shot I was looking for! See your hose routing, and where they're connected? First off, they're backwards from where they should be on a 34pict3 which is the only carb that works 100% with a DVDA distributor. This is how a stock VW should have them…
But since you have a H30/31pict, I suggest using these connection ports.
Essentially what's happening, is that you're getting extra timing at idle with the advance hose hooked up wrong, and then when you step on the gas, the timing is getting drawn back by the retard hose. Timing should be the other way around, retarded at idle and it should jump up when the throttle is applied. You WILL need to turn your big brass screw out quite a few turns to compensate for your new timing settings.
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And please, for the love of your car, please change the fuel lines to something pressure-rated and ethanol resistant… Let us know if you have questions!
Robbie
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Last edited by airschooled on Sat Jun 17, 2017 1:58 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Tcash
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Joined: July 20, 2011
Posts: 12844
Location: San Jose, California, USA
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| Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 1:56 pm Post subject: Re: Just how slow is an early bay? |
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thnx to asiab3
Your distributor vacuum hoses are backwards.
test the advance and retard, if the retard will not hold vacuum, cap off the fitting on the carburetor.
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airschooled
Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012
Posts: 12721
Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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| Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 2:00 pm Post subject: Re: Just how slow is an early bay? |
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| Tcash wrote: |
thnx to asiab3
Your distributor vacuum hoses are backwards.
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We posted at the same time… As above, that's a good picture for the stock 34pic3, but the H30/31 has a different vacuum signature on the side port, better suited for SVA "vacuum only" distributors. I will make another "official" image later, but in the mean time, we can spread the word that MOST H30/31 carbs have an angled port on the back that better matches the needs of SVDA and DVDA advance charts.
Robbie
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VW Man 53
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Joined: November 12, 2011
Posts: 588
Location: Scotia, New York
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| Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 2:32 pm Post subject: Re: Just how slow is an early bay? |
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ah, thanks to both of you so much, i'll never make that mistake again, i set my timing at 5 after around 850 rpm, it sounds alot better BUT still gutless, i'm thinking i may have a large carburetor issue due to that small pop when you wack the throttle the first time, it's so strange because it runs so smooth at lower rpm's
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swelchy
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Joined: January 07, 2013
Posts: 134
Location: Douglasville, GA
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| Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 3:10 pm Post subject: Re: Just how slow is an early bay? |
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Not a race car but not slow either if properly tuned.... I'm a 6 day a week 70+ mile round trip daily driver in my 69' Westy.... always have tools and things loaded so she is heavier than a transporter and I comfortably run 65 on Atlanta interstate and roads... She can run 70-75 no problem but anything past that is wobbly with a worn steering box...lol
I'm currently running a AE case Dual Relief...1776 with AA pistons/Cylinders. Full flowed with external filter. CB 044 Heads with Scat solid rocker shafts. Empi single tip quiet pack muffler and dual Kadrons w/ Scat linkage.. Pertronix 009 style electronic dizzy and bosch blue coil... lots of pep... My stock 1600 dual port was more sluggish but she pulled just fine at 60-65 on the interstate.
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22manybugs
Samba Member
Joined: March 30, 2006
Posts: 373
Location: Yorba Linda, Calif
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| Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 5:16 pm Post subject: Re: Just how slow is an early bay? |
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From what I remember on a DVDA, #1 cylinder was the wire toward the back right on the distributor ( because it was always a pain to hook up the timing light). Looks like #1 is hooked up in the front right here. Since you say cylinder 2 and 4 don't change sound, check that all the spark plug wires go to the correct cylinders.
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Lon
1969 Karmann Ghia convertible
1971 Westfalia camper |
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22manybugs
Samba Member
Joined: March 30, 2006
Posts: 373
Location: Yorba Linda, Calif
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| Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 5:25 pm Post subject: Re: Just how slow is an early bay? |
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| SamboSamba22 wrote: |
| VW ownership is not a race, its the separation from the RAT Race... |
My new favorite quote! 
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Lon
1969 Karmann Ghia convertible
1971 Westfalia camper |
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Abscate
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Joined: October 05, 2014
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Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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| Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 6:26 pm Post subject: Re: Just how slow is an early bay? |
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If you can get it down to Delmar sometime we can kick it around together.
I've got a driveshaft to do tomorrow so I'll have the tools out
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nemobuscaptain
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nemobuscaptain
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airschooled
Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012
Posts: 12721
Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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| Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 11:30 pm Post subject: Re: Just how slow is an early bay? |
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| nemobuscaptain wrote: |
| My only concern is that Aircooled.net says the 30 series carbs dont work w small canned svdas, if Im reading that right, and the dvda would be the same if true. |
I shared that concern for years before I went and measured a few H30/31 carbs with a vacuum gauge at all ports under various loads. Blue72beetle in Ft. Wayne, Indiana actually turned me onto his beautiful blue 72 beetle with a nice and smooth SVDA operation from the rear angle vacuum port on his H30/31. Ever since then, I've been preaching it from the keyboard; try it! (The angled port, not the 13,256 mile drive around the country to learn that.)
Robbie
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VW Man 53
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Joined: November 12, 2011
Posts: 588
Location: Scotia, New York
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| Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 4:43 am Post subject: Re: Just how slow is an early bay? |
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| Abscate wrote: |
If you can get it down to Delmar sometime we can kick it around together.
I've got a driveshaft to do tomorrow so I'll have the tools out |
i wont be around for fathers day but i would love to stop by sometime this week, pm me your info. I drove it home last night and it definitely feels a little better, i can keep up with traffic around town no problem, 4th gear is still pretty dead, i'm also wondering how accurate my speedo is.
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nemobuscaptain
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| Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 6:24 am Post subject: Re: Just how slow is an early bay? |
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| asiab3 wrote: |
| nemobuscaptain wrote: |
| My only concern is that Aircooled.net says the 30 series carbs dont work w small canned svdas, if Im reading that right, and the dvda would be the same if true. |
I shared that concern for years before I went and measured a few H30/31 carbs with a vacuum gauge at all ports under various loads. Blue72beetle in Ft. Wayne, Indiana actually turned me onto his beautiful blue 72 beetle with a nice and smooth SVDA operation from the rear angle vacuum port on his H30/31. Ever since then, I've been preaching it from the keyboard; try it! (The angled port, not the 13,256 mile drive around the country to learn that.)
Robbie |
I dont know why John would NOT want to sell more SVDAs. They're actually few threads about it on Samba also. Unfortunately I've never tried the combo myself. One of you two is right. Or maybe each is right sometimes.
In any event our friend here should check to make sure HIS advance is working. Most of those stock DVDAs had dead cans when I first got into bugs and busses in the 80s. as far as I know no one's been producing them for decades so I'm going to be real surprised if it works. If it's not working and he's timing it at 5 degrees after then he doesn't have NEARLY enough advance. If both the advance and regard sides of the can are dead plus he is timed at 5 devress after, even worse no doubt.
If you dont have one of those mityvac style vacuum gauges. It would also be a good time to buy that. Very little money between the strobe timing gun, the tach/dwell meter and the Mighty Vac vacuum gauge period it's really all I ever needed.
To check the vacuum advance, all you need to do is hook up your timing gun as normal plug the carb take the hose that goes to the vacuum advance on the distributor the one on the outside of the vacuum can and suck on it either manually or using the Mighty Vac vacuum gauge. You should be able to see the advance.
You can do the same with the Retard side (port.in the inside of the can) if you wanted to test it. I've just never run the retard it makes the engine run hotter (IME) and rougher Imo. I'm not worried about a tiny incremental improvement in emissions.
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airschooled
Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012
Posts: 12721
Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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| Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 9:01 am Post subject: Re: Just how slow is an early bay? |
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| nemobuscaptain wrote: |
| asiab3 wrote: |
| nemobuscaptain wrote: |
| My only concern is that Aircooled.net says the 30 series carbs dont work w small canned svdas, if Im reading that right, and the dvda would be the same if true. |
I shared that concern for years before I went and measured a few H30/31 carbs with a vacuum gauge at all ports under various loads. Blue72beetle in Ft. Wayne, Indiana actually turned me onto his beautiful blue 72 beetle with a nice and smooth SVDA operation from the rear angle vacuum port on his H30/31. Ever since then, I've been preaching it from the keyboard; try it! (The angled port, not the 13,256 mile drive around the country to learn that.)
Robbie |
I dont know why John would NOT want to sell more SVDAs. They're actually few threads about it on Samba also. Unfortunately I've never tried the combo myself. One of you two is right. Or maybe each is right sometimes. |
My intention is not to get in a pissing match, with John, or anyone else here. My intention is to get people to work with their own cars, to learn about what's actually happening back there, and to make conclusions based on what they have in front of them instead of trusting everything they read on the internet.
VW Man 53, nemobuscaptain is certainly right about the broken vacuum can being one possibility. Try the mouth test like in the video Tcash posted. It's not rocket science, but it's good enough to make your bus run and drive. From there, we still like to set our timing using the 28°-30° "all in" method at maximum advance with the hoses off. Are you familiar with how to do this? It's important that in the event of a slightly worn-out distributor, we're not over-advancing our engines.
Robbie
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wcfvw69 
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Joined: June 10, 2004
Posts: 13389
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 10:18 am Post subject: Re: Just how slow is an early bay? |
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On top of inspecting each side of the DVDA vacuum advance/retard can, do as the other person suggested. Make sure the distributors mechanical advance is working too. It's VERY common with the DVDA's to have sticky or stuck vacuum advance advance plates on them. I restore a lot of the DVDA's and most have never been apart since new. They always have something sticky or stuck in them.
With your carb, you could try to stick a (German) 009 in there which works ok w/it to see if it runs a lot better and the DVDA distributor is causing your issues.
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nemobuscaptain
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Tcash
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Joined: July 20, 2011
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Location: San Jose, California, USA
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| Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 3:51 pm Post subject: Re: Just how slow is an early bay? |
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I think both statements could be correct.
aircooled.net
"30 PICT Series carburetors can NOT use the SVDA Distributor since the vacuum signal is not correct and won’t pull the advance in on the small canned SVDA (you notice the early distributors use larger vacuum cans than later distributors because the vacuum signal is different)."
Aircooled is referring to the 30 PICT carb.
Not all H30/31's have the "D" port
| ashman40 wrote: |
| tb03830 wrote: |
| I noticed if I had the vacuum ports covered and no vacuum going to the Dizzy it was idling at about 7.5 degrees (ish). |
This sounds about right.
| tb03830 wrote: |
when I added the vacuum it jumped up to about 30 (ish) degrees but I have no way of determining that. What should it idle at in terms of degrees when connected properly to a vacuum?
With a stock pulley how do you determine 30-40 degrees and such? |
Under a strobe timing light the TDC mark will be close to the point where the fan belt leaves the pulley (11 o'clock) when timing is between 28-32BTDC. This is a fair estimate when you don't have a marked pulley.
A more accurate way would be to calculate and measure around the circumference... the pulley is 7" diameter. That means 1-deg = 0.061" (1.55mm). 30-deg = 1.83" (46.55mm). Make a mark 46.55mm CW from TDC. That will be 30BTDC.
I think you may be using the wrong vacuum port on the rear face of the carb (rear = rear of car).
In the above pic, the "A" port is the standard vacuum advance port which is connected to venturi vacuum. On the H30/31 and earlier 30Pict-1 carbs it is good for a 205K/M/T distributor but the vacuum signal is too weak for an SVDA/DVDA distributor.
Of the three ports on the rear face of the carb you want the one connected to ported vacuum. Ported vacuum has no vacuum at idle but jumps to intake vacuum as soon as the throttle is opened. Figure out which of the three vacuum ports has no vacuum at idle (engine warmed up - choke off), then test for strong vacuum as soon as the throttle is slightly opened. I believe it will be port "D", but check it for the proper vacuum profile.
Like Cusser I've only recently discovered that one of the ports on the H30/31 is ported vacuum. I've not tested this, but you can report back what you find and confirm it. For the longest time I just thought the H30/31 only worked w/ SVA distributors like the 205K/M/T connected to the left side venturi vacuum port. |
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VW Man 53
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Joined: November 12, 2011
Posts: 588
Location: Scotia, New York
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| Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 9:42 am Post subject: Re: Just how slow is an early bay? |
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i apologize for the lack of response, work keeps me busy, i have been driving it around and from driving it the fact that my timing wasnt advancing became clear quickly. I tested the advance side of the dvda with a mightyvac tool and of course it doesnt hold any vacuum, i appreciate all the help from everyone. You guys are saying i should advance my timing up around 28 degrees after top dead center until i get a functioning distributor? I plan to get an svda, i'm not partial to strictly mechanical advance distributors on stock engines, they run flat. I have a few distributors that i can mix and match with to see if i can get something decent set up unitl i get another one.
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VW Man 53
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Joined: November 12, 2011
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Location: Scotia, New York
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| Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 6:19 pm Post subject: Re: Just how slow is an early bay? |
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CORRECTION/ UPDATE, i'm not completely sure that i was testing it correctly with the mighty-vac, it appeared to not be holding any vacuum, heres the thing though, i diligently sat down tonight with a timing light and checked everything out, the vacuum advance is operating at full capacity. I can visibly see the timing advancing held at higher rpm, its advances probably 10-15 degrees mechanically with the hose off the vacuum can and i can make it jump another 10-15 when i put the hose on the canister at the same rpm.
I have discovered that my heat risers are plugged, they aren't even getting warm, the base of the carb is getting ice cold and covered with condensation, ill either swap out the manifold with another one i have or unplug this one, i'll keep you all posted.
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VW Man 53
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Joined: November 12, 2011
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Location: Scotia, New York
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| Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 5:48 am Post subject: Re: Just how slow is an early bay? |
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Update, manifold is off, heat risers are not plugged but it felt like the manifold studs at the head were REAL loose, not sure if this was the cause of my two front cylinders 2 and 4 not firing correctly therefore not generating enough heat to flow through the heat riser, i checked all over for vacuum leaks with carb cleaner with no result when it was together. If this isnt it all i can think of is i'm under carbed. More sage advice is always appreciated boys, thanks for reading
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