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SlowGoing Samba Member
Joined: June 10, 2014 Posts: 57
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Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 3:44 pm Post subject: Bad throwout / pilot bearing? |
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Hi Samba,
I'm wondering if anyone might be able to help me diagnose a transmission problem I'm having in my Westy. I have an '82 (formerly diesel) Westy with a 1.8L I4 hooked up to a DM code transaxle (off a tin top diesel).
The transmission was recently rebuilt by a reputable rebuilder; the clutch is also relatively new (~5000 miles). I also recently replaced the CMC and had a hydraulic fluid flush.
Here's the problem: When the clutch is engaged (i.e. pedal not depressed), I hear a whirring / chattering noise coming from the transaxle. The noise goes away when the clutch pedal is depressed. This has been going on for some time, but recently I've noticed that my clutch engagement has been getting worse and worse. I used to be able to get the van started easily with very little gas, but now the clutch feels a lot more "touchy," and I seem to have to rev it up over 2000 rpm to keep it from stalling. The "feel" of the clutch pedal has also been a little strange: I can feel a very faint vibration / pulsation through the pedal, and it feels a little more rubbery when I depress it, whereas it used to engage / disengage very smoothly.
I was thinking this could be a bad throwout bearing, but I've heard that bad throwout bearings tend to make noise under the opposite conditions (i.e. noise when clutch pedal is depressed). So maybe it's a bad pilot bearing? Any thoughts?
Thanks for any and all help |
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Vanagon Nut Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2008 Posts: 10379 Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 5:30 pm Post subject: Re: Bad throwout / pilot bearing? |
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The clutch is new but did they (or you) replace the pilot bearing?
Was the cross shaft in clutch housing replaced? _________________ 1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
1988 West DIY 50º ABA
VE7TBN |
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SlowGoing Samba Member
Joined: June 10, 2014 Posts: 57
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Posted: Sun Jun 25, 2017 11:23 am Post subject: Re: Bad throwout / pilot bearing? |
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I believe — but am not absolutely certain — that the pilot and throwout bearing were replaced when the clutch was changed. I could be wrong though, and I can't find the documentation I'd need to be certain. I am sure the cross shaft was not replaced, though.
I also saw this thread about the oil slinger: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=342440
and wonder if maybe this could be related to what I'm experiencing (if there's a pilot bearing failure, perhaps due to felt pad not being properly reinstalled).
I guess the only way to be certain is to drop the transmission again |
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Vanagon Nut Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2008 Posts: 10379 Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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Posted: Sun Jun 25, 2017 12:24 pm Post subject: Re: Bad throwout / pilot bearing? |
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SlowGoing wrote: |
I believe — but am not absolutely certain — that the pilot and throwout bearing were replaced when the clutch was changed. I could be wrong though, and I can't find the documentation I'd need to be certain. I am sure the cross shaft was not replaced, though.
I also saw this thread about the oil slinger: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=342440
and wonder if maybe this could be related to what I'm experiencing (if there's a pilot bearing failure, perhaps due to felt pad not being properly reinstalled).
I guess the only way to be certain is to drop the transmission again |
If you recall the shop or whoever using the term "clutch kit" in reference to the 5000 mile old clutch, that kit should've contained a new TOB and pilot bearing.
I asked after the cross shaft because there is a less expensive type that is prone to failure but for all intents and purposes it sounds like the cross shaft is likely ok. Ask the tranny building if he rebuilt the clutch housing.
I looked but did not find an image in my Bentley to confirm if the factory installed this type of pilot bearing but regardless, the diesel Vanagon pilot bearing shouldn't require the felt ring. The diesel pilot bearing is a sealed unit.
Given this from your first post:
"the noise goes away when the clutch pedal is depressed. This has been going on for some time, but recently I've noticed that my clutch engagement has been getting worse and worse."
I"d be inclined to say that you need to drop the tranny and inspect parts concerned.
There's quite a few factors involved in the clutch. e.g. on my first Vanagon, while replacing the clutch I was fortunate to find the stripped bolt at the throw out bearing sleeve. I was clued into that via a work receipt that c/w the van. It noted an issue at that part.
Also consider that the TOB may've been incorrectly installed.
Neil. _________________ 1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
1988 West DIY 50º ABA
VE7TBN |
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jberger Samba Member
Joined: November 17, 2003 Posts: 2476
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Posted: Sun Jun 25, 2017 7:37 pm Post subject: Re: Bad throwout / pilot bearing? |
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Is your idle tick-over smooth? Inline 4's can have a bit of vibration at idle which can contribute to noise from the main shaft bearing in the transaxle. I have experienced main shaft bearing noise from the same engine with different camshaft profiles affecting idle pulses. |
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Gnarlodious Samba Member
Joined: September 28, 2013 Posts: 2323 Location: Adobe Jungle USA
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Posted: Sun Jun 25, 2017 8:44 pm Post subject: Re: Bad throwout / pilot bearing? |
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Everything you described matches the symptoms if someone put a gasser engine onto a diesel trans using the diesel input shaft which is too short. Because it is work to change the input shaft to the gasser one, the ignorant mechanic just bolts on the gasser bellhousing without measuring the shaft. It is probably wobbling around in there and made a big old mess of the oil slinger and bellhousing. Advised to stop driving immediately. In addition, you are probably wrecking your 1ˢᵀ gear synchro since the clutch has been wobbling and dragging. Expect internal damage.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=603453 |
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SlowGoing Samba Member
Joined: June 10, 2014 Posts: 57
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Posted: Sun Jun 25, 2017 11:03 pm Post subject: Re: Bad throwout / pilot bearing? |
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I believe my swap has the diesel input shaft, but I'm also using the diesel bellhousing -- If I recall correctly, using an inline 4 gas engine with the diesel bellhousing and trans requires using the shorter input shaft, no? Or do you only use the shorter input shaft if you're using a gas trans with a diesel bellhousing?
http://volksweb.relitech.com/vanagon2.htm |
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Gnarlodious Samba Member
Joined: September 28, 2013 Posts: 2323 Location: Adobe Jungle USA
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Posted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 5:59 am Post subject: Re: Bad throwout / pilot bearing? |
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The gas engine trans on a diesel would not even fit on because the shaft is too long, it would be obvious something is wrong. The other way around is the problem, you bolt the diesel bellhousing onto the gas engine and it fits, never knowing the shaft is not even inside the pilot bearing. And it runs fine, at first, so you think the job is done. But a ways down the road that shaft starts wobbling, because all that is holding it straight is the oil slinger bushing, which gradually gets hammered loose from the wobbling.
That said, I don't know what the 1.8L engine uses for bellhousing and input shaft. It sounds like you are stuck with taking the trans off and having a look see. _________________ Vanagon ’83 diesel AAZ w/Giles injection, 5spd 4.57R&P+TBD and a '78 diesel Rabbit |
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Vanagon Nut Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2008 Posts: 10379 Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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Posted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 11:01 am Post subject: Re: Bad throwout / pilot bearing? |
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SlowGoing wrote: |
I believe my swap has the diesel input shaft, but I'm also using the diesel bellhousing -- If I recall correctly, using an inline 4 gas engine with the diesel bellhousing and trans requires using the shorter input shaft, no? Or do you only use the shorter input shaft if you're using a gas trans with a diesel bellhousing?
http://volksweb.relitech.com/vanagon2.htm |
I don't know the 5 speed or Syncro and am not familiar with VW engines built after 2000 but would guess the following still applies.
In terms of a 2wd Vanagon 4 speed transaxle, when installing a VW I4 you need the diesel input shaft or a shortened (cut) gas input shaft. In that regard, a gas vs diesel clutch housing is moot. i.e. in theory, one could install a gas clutch housing on a diesel transaxle and if all they had was a gas input shaft, that input shaft would have to be cut shorter to accommodate the VW I4.
Using an adaptor plate in lieu of the diesel clutch housing may require cutting less material off the gas input shaft but it has to be shortened none the less.
Of interest, my ABA I4 was from an automatic Jetta. The crank snout accepted a pilot bearing just fine. I use a KEP adaptor and flywheel.
Neil. _________________ 1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
1988 West DIY 50º ABA
VE7TBN |
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SlowGoing Samba Member
Joined: June 10, 2014 Posts: 57
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Posted: Mon Jul 03, 2017 7:28 pm Post subject: Re: Bad throwout / pilot bearing? |
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OK, so today I drained the gear oil and dropped the transmission. When I drained the gear oil, I found only a very small amount of shavings on the magnet -- the oil was otherwise clean. But after dropping the transaxle I can confirm that at least the input shaft seal is bad: gear oil was seeping into the bellhousing, although there didn't appear to be a lot.
I also spun the throwout bearing and pilot bearing and both seemed fine (smooth rotation, no play or noise). I then spun the transmission by hand and it too spun smoothly without any odd noises. That's when I noticed that my clutch disk was rattling! When I shake the clutch disc it sounds like maraca. Possibly one of the springs in the clutch is loose, or there might be something internal in the disc mechanisms that's spinning around — it's hard to say. After a bit of googling it looks like a rattling clutch disc would cause the same symptoms that I was experiencing.
So right now the plan is to replace the clutch disc and the input shaft seal. For the life of me I can't remember, if I have an 8v Jetta engine hooked up to a diesel transmission, can I use a jetta clutch kit? |
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Vanagon Nut Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2008 Posts: 10379 Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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Posted: Tue Jul 04, 2017 6:52 am Post subject: Re: Bad throwout / pilot bearing? |
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SlowGoing wrote: |
OK, so today I drained the gear oil and dropped the transmission. When I drained the gear oil, I found only a very small amount of shavings on the magnet -- the oil was otherwise clean. But after dropping the transaxle I can confirm that at least the input shaft seal is bad: gear oil was seeping into the bellhousing, although there didn't appear to be a lot.
I also spun the throwout bearing and pilot bearing and both seemed fine (smooth rotation, no play or noise). I then spun the transmission by hand and it too spun smoothly without any odd noises. That's when I noticed that my clutch disk was rattling! When I shake the clutch disc it sounds like maraca. Possibly one of the springs in the clutch is loose, or there might be something internal in the disc mechanisms that's spinning around — it's hard to say. After a bit of googling it looks like a rattling clutch disc would cause the same symptoms that I was experiencing.
So right now the plan is to replace the clutch disc and the input shaft seal. For the life of me I can't remember, if I have an 8v Jetta engine hooked up to a diesel transmission, can I use a jetta clutch kit? |
Thankfully, an input shaft seal isn't expensive. Search here on how best to remove that seal but I've done it, carefully, with a screwdriver and pic tool. An engine seal pry tool might fit but I recall the input shaft being in the way, generally. Basically, don't scratch or gouge the mating surface. Inspect that surface for gouges. JB weld or similar should work ok to repair it. Heck maybe even RTV would work. Make sure the vent hole on transaxle is clear. A clogged vent hole can exacerbate a leak at the input shaft seal and elsewhere on the tranny. IMO, it would pay to inspect for leaks at the engine crank oil seal and the oil seal carrier gasket at engine. Since the crank seal is the real wear item, the carrier gasket is likely fine. (P. 13.23 Bentley.) If you do the engine seal, be careful not to mark or gouge the seal carrier. A proper pry tool is really useful here as is adequate lighting. If you replace the seal carrier gasket, don't over torque bolts from pan to carrier; that carrier is aluminum. The flywheel bolts are an "always replace" item and there is a locking compound specified. 13.23 in Bentley. I'd think a small amount of blue loctite would suffice. Too much might interfere with setting the proper torque value. As with the WBX, it might be wise to have a close look at the flywheel snout for wear. Lots of info here on that. There should also be info on how best to ensure that you won't have a leak at oil pan seal to engine oil seal carrier, should you replace the carrier gasket. Diesel heads will have posted about that.
Your clutch should have part numbers (assuming the PO installed the correct clutch. Can't see how they couldn't), as will the flywheel but my guess is that its most likely a diesel Vanagon flywheel so you'd be installing a new diesel Vanagon clutch. AFAIK, the Jetta clutch is a different design. A new Sachs clutch kit should contain a throw out bearing and pilot bearing. It's normal to renew those parts when doing a clutch job. (Or it should be)
Neil. _________________ 1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
1988 West DIY 50º ABA
VE7TBN |
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Gnarlodious Samba Member
Joined: September 28, 2013 Posts: 2323 Location: Adobe Jungle USA
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Posted: Tue Jul 04, 2017 7:24 am Post subject: Re: Bad throwout / pilot bearing? |
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My clutch was totally worn out after 200k miles. I mean the springs lost their springiness even though everything looked good. So its a good idea to replace your pressure plate routinely. _________________ Vanagon ’83 diesel AAZ w/Giles injection, 5spd 4.57R&P+TBD and a '78 diesel Rabbit |
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SlowGoing Samba Member
Joined: June 10, 2014 Posts: 57
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Posted: Tue Jul 04, 2017 8:40 am Post subject: Re: Bad throwout / pilot bearing? |
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Thank you, Neil and Gnarlodius, for all of the very helpful input and advice. It is deeply appreciated. I'll report back after all the parts are replaced and things are re-assembled. Now, where to find a diesel vanagon clutch on the 4th of July... |
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