67 Beetle starter mystery (on starter 3!!!)

[royalcultband]

So I've been having some issues with my beetle starter for the past month. Before all this occurred the car ran great and I know the motor is not seized.

First I'll summarize the issues with the starter then I'll post how I've narrowed down the issues and see what everything thinks as I'm really at my wits end at this point.

A few weeks ago I put some new gauges under my dash (oil temp and oil pressure). I took the car for a quick ride and everything was fine. The next day I go to drive the car and the starter starts acting funny. Fist it turns over kind of hard then eventually just started to make a click like the solenoid was engaging when I turn the key then nothing. I talked to my VW supplier and the starter (a stock bosch 12v) I had purchased a few months prior was under a 1 year warranty. Great!
I pull it out and send it back. They sent me a new starter free of charge. I installed the new one, turned the key and off it went! I shut off the car and tried it a few more times to make sure everything was as it should be. The starter on one try stuck and made a winding noise without starting the engine. The only way to disable this was to pull the positive cable off the battery. I could reconnect it and it would immediately stick again. If I let the car sit a while I could fire it up but eventually the starter would stick again. After doing some research it appeared the issue was the solenoid. I pulled the starter and sent it back and while my supplier agreed there seemed to be an issue they made it clear a 3rd starter would not be sent out (which is fair, what are the odds I had 3 defective starters?)
The new starter arrived yesterday and was installed today. Everything was hooked up as it should be and I turned the key. All I got was the same clunk the first starter did. I pulled the starter and did a quick bench test. The starter kicks forward but does NOT rotate as it should. Is my car burning starters or am I just having a few unlucky parts?

So far, here are the issues it could be and what I've done to narrow this down:

The Ignition:
When the solenoid was sticking I thought maybe the ignition wasn't disengaging. I removed the ignition wire from the starter and this did not stop the starter from immediately sticking once the battery terminal was connected. Today I also disconnected the ignition to starter wire from the ignition and jumped it directly to the power source to the ignition. I received the same click so this appears to not be the issue.

The wiring and new gauges:
The problem first showed up after installing my oil pressure and temp gauges but this seems to be a coincidence. For reference, the hot for the gauge lights is spliced into the hot coming off the light switch. Pretty typical. The hot for the gauges themselves was taken off a hot wire when the key is turned to the on position. Since my fuse panel is full I spliced into a hot going to the emergency relay panel which is hot when the key is turned on. None of the new wiring interferes with the ignition. As far as I can tell this isn't the issue.
The wires to the starter are hooked up as they should be. Positive to the battery and ignition wire to the terminal on the solenoid.

The Battery:
Not much to say here. It's reading 12 or 13 when the car is off. I tried a similar battery out of my old chevy and nothing changed, same issue.


Am I missing something here? Are the starters just bad or is something frying? I really think I have it narrowed down to the starter but what are the odds 3 were bad?

[vwjetboat]

bushing in trans bad ?

[Eric&Barb]

Have the battery checked at your FLAPS.

Clean both ends of BOTH battery cables and apply dielectric grease to the surfaces to keep corrosion away for as long as possible. Do same to the transaxle to body ground cable.

Replace any questionable cable. Especially if you have a battery cable the clamp broke on and sawed off. Then installed one of those battery clamps that bolt/clamp onto the end of the old battery cable.

Wolfburg West sells much better quality battery cables just like the OG ones installed at the factory. The ends on the cables are not only crimped on, but also soldered for a joint/connection that is gas and battery acid proof, so no corrosion can get into there. Plus the battery terminal clamps are made of much better and longer lasting brass.

Have seen a FLAPS ground cable fail in less than two years due to battery acid getting between the lead clamp and the end of the cable.

Definitely the starter bushing on either end of the starter can cause problems!!
_________________
In Stereo, Where Available!

[EVfun]

Second on changing the flywheel bushing. I also suggest taking a good look at the teeth on the flywheel. They may be chewed up and encouraging the drive to stay engaged.

Please don't bench test a Bug starter unless you are using the autostick version. The four speed ones lack a rear bearing (its in the transaxle) and the armature thrashes around hitting the field poles.
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[Pruneman99]

Quit messing around with the non supported starter. The bushing in the trans is probably suspect. Kinda a PITA to change unless you drop the engine or have the special tool. I bought a cheepo autostick starter from AutoZone and it has been flawless for years. I don't bother messing with a bushing anymore.

[royalcultband]

I should mention that the starter bushing was replaced. Its a 6v to 12v bushing. Looks like my transmission was changed to an earlier model at some point.

[Cusser]

royalcultband - I tend to agree about the starter bushing being suspect, you didn't say anything about replacing your starter bushing. Did these recent starters even come with a starter bushing?

About 2 decades ago, the "remanufactured by Bosch" starters always came with a new starter bushing. Yes, these are a pain/impossible to remove while the engine is installed - and I didn't replace mine - but I did save the bushing. Last fall when the engine was out for its "resurrection", I replaced the original bushing (easy with engine out) even though I hadn't had starter problems, and it didn't look good. Guess which one was the new one, and which is the old one.

It sounds to me as well that maybe the best path for you is a self-supported autostick starter.
_________________
1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297

[vwjetboat]

easy to remove and install while in car.. 7/16 or 1/2 tap.. i ferget.. but ya stick it in there and then socket and air ratchet.. poof.. its out.. to put in.. use a 3/8 6 inch extension with a 3/8 to 1/4 adapter with a 1/4 short socket that fits inside bushing.. to center adapter.. craftsman adapters are flat.. and fit outside bushing.. few wacks with a hammer and new one is in.. grease end of starter and install..

[61SNRF]

I agree with having the battery tested, the first symptom you describe can be caused by a battery with a weak or dead cell.
Works fine one day then suddenly goes weak. Takes a jump then fine until next morning.
You say it has 12 or 13v like its not important but every decimal point is critical. A fully charged 12v battery should be 12.66v when checked after sitting static at least 1 hour.
The one out of your old Chevy may not be the best benchmark either.

Also agree that every and all connections must be well made with properly rated wire sizes, bad cable connections causing voltage drops that can act up intermittently due to changing weather and humidity.

The first and third starters are most likely good with no problems, the second sounds like it had an internal short keeping the solenoid engaged.

From your description wouldn't suspect bushing because a real badly worn one would make it crank slow every time.
_________________
-Bruce

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

[Pruneman99]

[vwjetboat]

[Pruneman99]

I think I gave 45 bucks at AutoZone for an autostick starter. Sure it's a reman who knows what starter, but it's been running fine for 6 years or so. Only time it failed to crank, the wire fell off the starter. My bad though, I used a cheap spade terminal. Even then I just gave it a slight crush with some pliers, and back on.

Oh I don't have a lift, that would make it much easier to get that bushing, or to everything for that matter!

EDIT... Just looked it up, it's $45.99 for a Duralast autostick with $17.00 core. They took my non supported started for a core..

[vwjetboat]

[royalcultband]

Hi all,

Thanks for all the advice. I forgot to mention int he post but I did put a new bushing in. My case takes a 6v to 12v conversion bushing as it appears someone in the past swapped out the tranny. I am dropping the starter off with a professional to double check it's condition. If it appears that the starter is fine and nothing was fried or broken to begin with I may just get an autostick starter and be done with it. CBperformance has hi-torque starters that seem descent.

[modok]

What is the probability of getting three bad ones?
I think fairly high, where there is one there is more.
Auto-zone starters and power steering pumps, about 70% defective in my experience. It can happen. Like I said where there is one....

Get one from napa

[Slow 1200]

I'd start to price ignition switches if I were you

[royalcultband]

Hey everyone, problem solved!

I had my starter looked at by a professional and everything was fine. I don't know if my case is worn or someone drilled it out but even with the 12v to 6v bushing it's a little loose. I grabbed an autostick starter from autozone to try out and it fired right up!

[Cusser]

[royalcultband]

Good.

Suggested that June 25th: