Help Diagnose Noise at Clutch Operating Lever (video)

[Vanagon Nut]

Hi all.

This is for an ~ 50K miles pro rebuilt WBX transaxle, new at time of tranny install Sachs WBX clutch on an ABA gas I4 engine with KEP adaptor and flywheel. Clutch slave was replaced much less than 50K miles ago.

At times, the clutch shudders when engaged. This happens after I've driven the van a while. This is true for the groaning noise too. Clutch shudder could be a separate issue.

I'd originally thought the groaning noise was coming from the clutch master cylinder but its for sure louder at rear of vehicle. I have an idea what it may be but could really use input on this one.

~ 22 second video:


Link

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1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA

1988 West DIY 50º ABA

VE7TBN

[minnisp]

hey man,

It looks like the crossarm shaft bushing is moving. which means it's probably worn out. But first the clutch slave bracket looks loose. There's a 17mm slave bracket bolt at the front/top of the engine on the drivers side that should be tightened. you also probably need to tighten the clutch slave bolts, which are 13mm. They're hard to get to. One is right below the 17mm bracket bolt mentioned above, the other .. try from underneath the drivers side of the van, in front of the engine just under the cv shaft. You'll need a long ratchet extension and maybe a swivel for the socket. a 13mm end wrench to hold the top nut.

otherwise, you'll need to drop the transmission and get a look inside the bell housing to see what's going on with the release bearing, the cross arm shaft and the shaft bushing.
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1989 GL 2.1 WBX Manual

[Vanagon Nut]

[Vanagon Nut]

All fasteners were torqued ok, no obvious cracks at bracket. My thinking is that the movement between bracket and collar on clutch housing is normal and that a little "give" there is ok; better to have a little give than put that force directly onto the collar at clutch housing? (housing metal is not super strong).

As an aside, it occurred to me that one could add a 3rd brace to the clutch slave bracket. I'm sure it's been done. It also occurred to me that if one had a clutch housing with failed collar they could make a one piece part that serves as a collar and bushing but I don't think the clutch housing metal is thick enough to support a part like that; over time stresses from that part to housing might cause cracks at housing over time..... if it even worked.

Neil.
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1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA

1988 West DIY 50º ABA

VE7TBN

[Gnarlodious]

There's actually a greasing hole somewhere behind the lever plugged by a screw. I have found that putting grease inside the hole then screwing it in is a good way to grease just a little but not too much. Picture:

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Vanagon ’83 diesel AAZ w/Giles injection, 5spd 4.57R&P+TBD and a '78 diesel Rabbit

[Vanagon Nut]

[Vanagon Nut]

A slightly better video. It appears the cross shaft isn't moving laterally, that I can see. Bracket certainly does move but I don't think that's the issue.

The sound isn't as loud as the video makes it out to be but it gets worse as I drive the van. Engine was cold when I shot the video.

Any thoughts on what the sound may be are welcome. Barring any muffler bearing or flux capacitor jokes.


Link

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1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA

1988 West DIY 50º ABA

VE7TBN

[minnisp]

that's what my clutch was doing .. the growling, not the bracket moving. I didn't figure out which specific part was causing the growling. It was all worn out and wobbling and squawking together. i just replaced it all. Once you're in there ....
I like the metallic cross-arm shaft bushing better than the plastic one (the plastic one is the OEM one). Get the OEM throw out bearing guide from Weddle, not the aftermarket one from Van-Café. The aftermarket guide is kind of weak..my 2 cents. Unless you can live with it like it is. . I couldn't. squawk! squawk!
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1989 GL 2.1 WBX Manual

[minnisp]

that's a great video by the way. My guess is the bushing.
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1989 GL 2.1 WBX Manual

[Vanagon Nut]

Thanks minnisp.

When you fixed the issue, did you replace clutch and rebuild clutch housing at the same time?

If I'm lucky, the existing throw out bearing guide is OEM. If not I may have a good used one.

I guess the tranny is coming out either way. Applied lube to plastic cup on slave. No real change.

And thanks re: comment on video. At very least videos help me diagnose. No helper here.

Thankfully, I have new OEM rubber, plastic bushings on hand but I agree; a metal bushing at driverside end of cross shaft sounds like it would be better.

Neil.
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1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA

1988 West DIY 50º ABA

VE7TBN

[minnisp]

Yes, I did the whole nine yards several times. i learned the hard way, and then went way beyond.
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1989 GL 2.1 WBX Manual

[Vanagon Nut]

[tikiman71]

Hi there!

I know this was some time ago, but did you ever resolve the creaking clutch problem? I am having the exact same noise and issue, and have since lubed externally and built a more robust slave cylinder mount, but still have the noise and a slightly crunchy clutch feel. I know I need to pull the tranny at this point, but was hoping to be motivated by your successful remedy of the problem.

Cheers,

Adam
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1987 Westfalia GL

[Vanagon Nut]

[tikiman71]

Thanks for the reply!

Yes the crunchy feel of the clutch may be unrelated, but the creaking noise coincides with the crunch, always after things warm up a bit. On a cold startup, there is no clutch engagement noise or crunchy pedal feel. Then they usually come on within 30 minutes of driving/shifting.

The noise and feel are certainly not the end of the world, but after a while I fixate on them and it takes away from the (usual) pleasurable driving experience of the van. And it makes driving in traffic awful.

I'm hoping to get into the transmission in the next few months to take a look at the cross shaft assembly, TOB, and pressure plate. Everything was rebuilt/replaced less than 25K ago, so it is a bit of a mystery.

Thanks again for the quick response,

Adam
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1987 Westfalia GL

[Vanagon Nut]

You're welcome.

Ya, thinking about it again, based on your last description, if the cross shaft bushings were really worn, I guess the "crunch" sound could be a little metal on metal of cross shaft against hole in clutch housing or possibly against the end of that 11 mm head bolt. But, that sound/feel could be due to several different things.

Hopefully, the cross shaft isn't wearing (ovaling) out the hole in clutch housing it passes through. That would suck. The clutch housing material isn't that strong. I doubt excessive wear at that hole would allow cross shaft to damage the collar slave bracket sits on but.......

One thing is for sure, as I drove and tranny soaked up some engine heat, the noise would get worse.

Neil.

couldn't find image of "collar" I refer to but found this instead. This shows method I figured out to remove clutch operating lever off cross shaft. It worked great. IMO, every Vanagon owner should have a small and larger Pittmann arm pullers as tools. Good for front end work. You need to drill a small countersunk hole at end of cross shaft for Pittmann arm point.

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1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA

1988 West DIY 50º ABA

VE7TBN

[Prairie Dog]

I have the same problem shown in the video for “Help Diagnose Noise at Clutch Operating Lever". The cross-shaft lever squeaks whenever I depress the clutch. I ordered the cross-shaft bushing kit and am trying to emotionally prepare myself for removing the transmission to replace and regrease the bushings. In addition to the squeak, I can feel some resistance in the clutch pedal, especially when I am starting in first gear on an incline. I now have to depress the clutch pedal to the floor to change gears.

I’m driving a 1988 Westfalia, 2wd. The tranny was rebuilt by AA Transaxle about 12 years ago. They installed a Peloquin LSD and higher 3rd and 4th gear ratios for use with a 2.5 SOHC Subaru engine (Vanaroo turn-key engine transplant kit from a 2007 Subaru Impreza with 18K). I have about 65K on the van since installing the Subaru engine 11 years ago.

Is there anything else that might account for the noise, or for the clutch pedal engagement point now being almost to the floor?

The clutch was professionally replaced two years and 6k miles ago (clutch, pilot shaft, clutch release bearing, flywheel machined).

I recently drained and replaced the tranny gear oil (Sweptco 210 – as recommended by AA Transaxle). The magnetic drain plug had only a very light coating of metal shavings. I had to remove the shifter shaft to get enough torque on the refill allen plug to remove it without stripping it. While the shifter rod was disconnected, I manually shifted through the gears (following directions in a GoWesty article), so I don’t think the transmission itself is the problem.

I checked the clutch master and slave cylinders. Neither is leaking and the fluid level in the reservoir is full. I bled the system multiple times (twice with a pressure bleeder and once by the traditional method). There are no air bubbles in the line that I can see.

So, is there anything else I should do or check before pulling the transmission?

Thanks for your help.

Jim

[Igeo]

Were the clutch master and slave replaced with the clutch overhaul? Blow by in either could account for the low release and engagement point.
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1987 Westfalia 2.1 WBX Manual

[Prairie Dog]

[Igeo]

Im suggesting that it's possible that the low engagement point may be related to internal leakage of one or both of those hydraulic components. I guess it it were mine, I'd replace both before going through the work of removing the transmission. If you still have issues, then you can at least eliminate those and focus on the release mechanism and clutch. Maybe do the master first since the slave is newer.
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1987 Westfalia 2.1 WBX Manual