Thoughts on 2058cc motor with 80mm crank now 2127cc build thread

[pondervwmike]

Hello,
This is my first post to the forum so bear with me please. I have a 67 beetle that has been in my garage for the last 12 years. I built my first VW engine at 15 years old and yes I screwed up alot but it ran for a couple years. I even won a couple shows with the car. I was big into VWs from 1995 to 2005 and then I threw a rod and got bored/frustrated and into chevy v8's,4x4s and offroading. I have been bitten by the bug again. This time I am 38 not 15 and would like to build a 2058cc stroker. I am working on a parts list and thought I would run it past you guys. My plan is to buy one part at a time as I sell my V8 crap as well as other stuff. This will be a weekend toy only and will be driven conservatively, maybe a couple passes at the 1/8th mile track, and not over 6500rpm. Also I do not have unlimited $ but I have free use of a non vw machine shop.
So here is my plan:
I have:
An already machined AE dual relief case from the Samba classifieds. I will take it back to the machinist to make sure they did in fact do what the seller said they did which was:
Blueprinted, line bored 040, decked, full flowed, 8mm casesavers, deep stud for #3, cleared for an 82mm and bored for 90.5/92
I am planning on doing a port job to the case to improve air flow but I am unsure about the HVX modifications.
1 1/2" merged exhaust with stinger
German 009 Dizzy with Pertronix and Bosch Blue Coil
Weber Progressive Carb- selling asap to get 44 duals
Stock doghouse oil cooler.

Parts to buy:
80mm forged 4340 Crank with stock gears, spacer etc.
Chromalloy I beam Rods 5.394"
W120 Camshaft, Lifters and gear kit
Cast Flywheel 8 dowel lightened to 12lb
Chromalloy 36mm Gland nut
Schadek 26mm Oil Pump-blueprinted
Full Flow pump Cover
1.5 quart Deep Sump with washer welded to pickup tube
Reuse 8mm head studs
90.5B pistons and cylinders
Barrel Shims to make .040-.060 deck height
9-1 compression
500 or 501 series 40 x 35.5 Big valve heads from AA or 502 series Big Valve heads from Kaddie Shak- with at home port and polish and match p and p manifolds
NGK or Bosch ¾” reach Spark plugs
Reuse Stock Rockers clean polish etc
New Stock Clutch Set-dont want to break my transaxle
Electric Fuel Pump
Remote oil filter mount with a Fram or Wix filter

I am sure I have forgot something

Questions:
I have heard a ton about 82mm cranks and 78mm cranks but not an 80mm. Whats the deal?
What are the differences between a 500, 501 and 502 head?
What is the deal with the HVX mods are they worth it? I really dont want to drill the lifter galleys.
Is the Cast Flywheel ok for my application?
Should I put a plug in the threaded oil output in the case or get a full flow pump?
Should I even try to use the Weber Progressive temporarily with this motor?
Should I buy a new hardware kit or use the original German stuff?
Should I plan on an external oil cooler?

Hoping to make 130hp or so at the crank and run a high 14 second quarter mile
Do any parts in here sound wrong for a mild 2 liter motor?
Thanks in advance for all your help

Pondervwmike

[Alstrup]

[Pruneman99]

80mm crank is an odd size. Do you have this crank already?
82mm and stock length rods make a stock width engine (or pretty close)
You will need solid rocker shafts.
The new panchitos would be a good choice on heads. You could go bigger valves depending on where you want to keep the revs.
You are on the borderline on a 1 1/2" or 1 5/8" exhaust.
Throw that progressive in the trash
A 010 distributor would be a better choice but the German 009 could work ok. There are other choices available also.
Forged 8 dowel flywheel is necessary
There are newer cam grinds available. Check out Web, 163? Or fk series for ratio rockers to be easier on the pushrod bores. But the 120 will work with stock rockers.
Dual valve springs are going to be required unless you are just going to DD the car.

[pondervwmike]

Thank you so much for the quick replys. I forgot how nice VW people are. You guys are great.

150hp oh wow thats alot more than I expected.

Ok no Progressive carb I knew that was a dumb idea (my 1641 ran great right out of the box with it btw) and a Chromo flywheel got that. Thanks so much.

I will look into some different cams and rockers thank for including your suggestions

Ponchito heads. I appreciate the suggestion. I'll check them out. Although the Kaddie Shak heads come with small custom cc'd chambers nice way to set compression you know.

So a KEP stage 1 huh? It will take a while for me to get a nice tranny built and I would rather smoke a disc than a transaxle you know. But maybe I should "spring" (pun intended) for a KEP. The clutch is important to me because I need it for my rotating assembly balance. If I change it later it will throw off my balance quite a bit.
I will get a KEP stage 1.

I will add decklid standoffs to the list and seal up my shroud really good. Thanks for that info. I had not considered that yet.

HVX oiling mods hummm I really dont want to drill that oil galley it seems rather dangerous. More thinking is needed....

No I dont have the 80mm crank yet. I just read somewhere here that the B pistons seem to be ideal for the 80mm stroke as it pertains to deck height and cam clearance will be easier so maybe I could get away without cutting the cam down and use less spacer width under the barrels. Is this true or is an 82mm just as easy to get the deck height right. I would like to avoid a wide engine, cutting down cylinders, flycutting the heads and/or cutting the combustion chambers. So I am still wondering about the 80mm crank. Due to my ring and pinion this motor will be spinning high rpms on the highway as well as around town. I thought an 80mm would be a nice mix of high revs and strength. Does this sound right? Oh btw I just looked again and my header is 1 5/8" pipe it just looked like 1 1/2 at the flanges. Dang im still stuck at 78, 80 or 82 oh well. I am still saving for the crank it wil be a week or more away but I would like to buy that asap.

Thanks so much again Im sure I will have more questions later as I build it.

Peace

[pondervwmike]

Thank you so much for the quick replys. I forgot how nice VW people are. You guys are great.

150hp oh wow thats a lot!

Ok no Progressive carb I knew that was a dumb idea (my 1641 ran great right out of the box with it btw)
Chromo flywheel got that. Thanks so much.
I will look into some different cams and rockers thank for including your suggestions
Ponchito heads. I appreciate the suggestion. I'll check them out. Although the Kaddie Shak heads come with small custom cc'd chambers nice way to set compression you know.
So a KEP stage 1 huh? It will take a while for me to get a nice tranny built and I would rather smoke a disc than a transaxle you know. But maybe I should "spring" (pun intended) for a KEP. The clutch is important to me because I need it for my rotating assembly balance. If I change it later it will throw off my balance quite a bit.
I will get a KEP stage 1.
I will add decklid standoffs to the list and seal up my shroud really good. Thanks for that info. I had not considered that yet.
HVX oiling mods hummm I really dont want to drill that oil galley it seems rather dangerous. More thinking is needed.... dont worry I will do it.
Plug the passage and get a full flow pump duh, that just makes sense.
No I dont have the 80mm crank yet. I just read somewhere here that the B pistons seem to be ideal for the 80mm stroke as it pertains to deck height and cam clearance will be easier so maybe I could get away without cutting the cam down and use less spacer width under the barrels. Is this true or is an 82mm just as easy to get the deck height right. I would like to avoid a wide engine, cutting down cylinders, flycutting the heads and/or cutting the combustion chambers. So I am still wondering about the 80mm crank. Due to my ring and pinion this motor will be spinning high rpms on the highway as well as around town. I thought an 80mm would be a nice mix of high revs and strength. Does this sound right? Oh btw I just looked again and my header is 1 5/8" pipe it just looked like 1 1/2 at the flanges. Dang im still stuck at 78, 80 or 82 oh well. I am still saving for the crank it wil be a week or more away but I would like to buy that asap.

Thanks so much again Im sure I will have more questions later as I build it.

[modok]

Why 80mm stroke? easy. because it makes the piston come to the top for the cylinder, just right. Great idea with 5.4/stock length rods and mahle 90.5B cylinder. Very handy combination.

a lot of folks would be more inclined to go 78 stroke and AA thickwall 92 cylinders, but you know, they aren't THAT great.
If you don't buy any AA brand parts, that's fine, you aren't missing anything but a headache.

I would steer you towards CB panchito or the CNC round ports rather than the chinese heads.

And other than that, I'll go with whatever Alstrup said. Didn't read it, but i am sure it is darn good advice as usual

[pondervwmike]

Wow yea the Panchitos are nice heads and they are not to bad on the wallet either. I will go with those. Heads are a long way off though.

What about a 68-70 vw bus pressure plate with a solid disc. They are half the cost of a Kennedy stage 1. Always nice to use stock parts you know.

Thanks

[pondervwmike]

Thanks Modok
I deviated from my main topic a little with the clutch question and i apologize. So I will attempt to answer the question proposed:
Why the 80 millimeter crankshaft?

a: there will be very little shimming beneath the cylinders due to the b style pin height.
b: a deck of .060 puts the compression at a very nice at 9.1 to 1 with standard 54cc combustion chambers as found with the Panchitos and Kaddie Shack heads.
c: No flycutting and no head gasket. So therefore there wouldn't be a stepped combustion chamber.
d: Even with VW journals you could use I-beam rods and may not need to clearance the crank counterweight, big end of rod or the camshaft in between the lobes and journals.
e: The rod ratio is not bad at all

Some other personal reasons for me
a: I have not built a stroker before just some 1600s and one high performance 1641.
b: I am on a per part budget of sorts. 80mm are the least expensive Chinese cranks and one is on eBay for $217 delivered (this may be a bad reason)I realize that I will have to check measurements of the crank and it may need to be resized. I need to check on how much this is.
c: I would like to start with something a bit on the simpler side.

This bore and stroke seems great yet I have found very little references to it online. Anyone tried it? or have any comments?

Thanks again guys n gals

[esde]

Don't forget to balance the whole thing.
Sometimes buying it all from one place, and having it (crank, flywheel, and rods) balanced by the vendor can save you some $$ over having balanced later. I know dropping my own pile at the local shop to get balanced always ends up being more than when I have parts ordered pre balanced from CB or DPR.
_________________
modok wrote:
Bent cranks are silent but gather no moss. I mean, ah, something like that.

[modok]

There is a long history of why 80mm wasn't a popular size, but it has to do with racing classes, oil hole location welding stock cranks, tradition ect.
No real reason that's valid today.

I know what you mean about the "bus" pressure plate.
WAY back when pressure plates had coil springs and levers, the bug had 6 springs and the bus plate 9 springs.

They were 1200 lbs rather than 900 something that was stock, but these days, I don't know if there is a difference. they are all HD probably 1100-1200 lbs
LUK and Sachs just make one pressure plate, no longer is there a normal and HD bus one, as far as I know.

Will it hold? it will be close.
I actually have a 9 spring pressure plate and copperhead disk on my 2007 cc engine, but it's on the edge, I think if I went to low altitude it would not hold.

[pondervwmike]

Thanks Modok and Esde,
I will have the whole thing dynamically balanced. My not so local(an hour away) shop wants $250 and they have a good rep. I will probably have it done there. I didnt have this done on a stock motor and when I tore it down 75,000 miles later the rear main bearing saddle(closest to the flywheel) was beat to crap. The others were not so bad at all. Thanks again

[bugguy1967]

If you run an 80mm and I-beams, you will need to clearance your cam or rod caps, unless you buy an Engle cam and specify that it be made on the SC-1 pre-clearanced billet. Your lifters will need to be compatible.

[bugguy1967]

You can also call Car Craft and order an 82mm for the same price shipped, just in case the cost was swaying you.

Oh, and buy CB I-beams over AA I-beams. They're better quality. Same price.

[modok]

If they really charge 250 to balance......buy revmaster rods.

They are decent rods, but usually far out of balance....get your money's worth out of the bastards

[pondervwmike]

Hey thanks guys for all your help. Yea I thought 250 was high to balance a rotating assembly but I talked to him yesterday and he said he would give me a break if I did the rods and pistons by myself (I have a very accurate gram scale). Maybe I will go 82mm. Its sounding better and better now. And yes CB unitechs were what I was wanting but they are not in stock, maybe they will be by the time I am ready for them. Thanks again.

[pondervwmike]

Well, I had to be different so I went with the 80mm crankshaft. Also found out that I have a German Flywheel duh, so its going in to be 8 doweled, resurfaced and lightened. Thank god I dont have to deal with a questionable flywheel. I will keep you posted as this build progresses. It should be interesting how an 80 by 90.5 goes together. Thanks again!

[pondervwmike]

Some pics of what I am starting with

[mark tucker]

the 80mm cranks are cheep.I would buy one of those over a 78.whatever if I was budget buying or just wanted a good crank and then be able to buy new rods too. there is no reason to not look at the 80mm.as far as oddball go's my scat is a 78.8mm dome are 78, some 78.4 & think Ive see a 78.2 so....whats oddball???? as far as balancing send it to dpr, get it right and affordable. Ive thought about getting one of those 80mm cranks for shelf stock.if I ever go back through my 2028 and up the size 1.2mm!!!! whhoooo .

[pondervwmike]

Happy 4th of july everybody.
I am ordering some stuff for my 2058cc engine and I would like some opinions on a camshaft. I have decided I want a radical lopey cam for my 67' Cal looker. The idle sound it makes at idle is important to me. I just love a nasty thump thump pop pop type of sound.
The car will be a lightweight but all steel with a 66 transaxle that has 4.37 ring and pinion so It will run at relatively high rpms. I would like to stick with VW 1.1-1 rockers at first. I am thinking Engle 125 or 130 if thats enough maybe bigger. I have only used a w100 in a 1641cc. I dont have much experience with big vw motors only small ones. What do you guys think?
Basic Specs:
80mm forged 4340 Crank with racer spacer.
Chromalloy I beam Rods 5.4"
OG VW Flywheel 8 dowel may lighten to 13lbs- any input here??
90.5B pistons and cylinders
.040-.060 deck height
9.1-10 to 1 compression-up for debate any thoughts?
40x35.5 Big Valve heads from Kaddie Shak- with port and polish
Dual Chinese 44's (hopefully I can find some similar european carbs)
Reuse Stock Rockers
Bolt on Rocker shafts

[modok]

Once you go a ways over 300 degrees running duration the idle does suffer, but it does not truly "lope".
Real lope is an hysteresis loop caused by unsteady manifold vacuum. You can't get that with IR carbs.