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lofoxx
Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2015
Posts: 63
Location: New Hampshire
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 Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 2:32 pm Post subject: "Squishy" brake pedal |
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So I've got the 411 up and running. Runs pretty well, replaced the master, new front pads and calipers, and it seems like we are a go. I did some and I had a local shop do some when I just ran out of brainpower and tools.
That said...
Here is what I don't remember, because the last time I drove one of these I was 17. I am 43 now. The brakes are squishy - they are not as responsive as, for example, my daily driver (a Subaru). Kinda interesting to drive it...
Is there something I am missing or forgetting about this? I remember it not stopping on a dime back in 1991 but don't know if I am insane.
Thanks in advance,
Loren
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1972 VW 411 |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21513
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 3:46 pm Post subject: Re: "Squishy" brake pedal |
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 ....bear in mind....your daily driver has power brakes.
Also the 411/412 system is notoriously hard to bleed. It sometimes takes xriving it around for a couple of days and re-bleeding. Also.....the pads need to bed in. Stop slowly and let the pads and shoes wear in a little. Then readjust the rear brakes....check hand brake adjustment....and usually its at this point when I re-bleed.
Also.....what kind of front pads did you end up using? Ray |
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lofoxx
Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2015
Posts: 63
Location: New Hampshire
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| Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 3:54 pm Post subject: Re: "Squishy" brake pedal |
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Ray,
First of all - thanks. I was talking about you to someone up here, you're like the Oracle of the Type 4.
That's great to know. I'll try all of the above...
Also, I don't recall what I got for the brake pads. They came from a VW shop up here in Westminster, VT; I'll see if I still have the box.
Thanks again,
Loren
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1972 VW 411 |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21513
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 5:24 pm Post subject: Re: "Squishy" brake pedal |
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| lofoxx wrote: |
Ray,
First of all - thanks. I was talking about you to someone up here, you're like the Oracle of the Type 4.
That's great to know. I'll try all of the above...
Also, I don't recall what I got for the brake pads. They came from a VW shop up here in Westminster, VT; I'll see if I still have the box.
Thanks again,
Loren |
The only reason I question what brake pads.....is you want to be SURE....that you do not use standard old school organic pads.
When you look at places like FLAPS or private shops that have been around a long time.....you find many pad choices at FLAPS.....from under $10 a set to $30-40 a set. Usually....the cheap pads are full organic material very similar to old school clutch material....meaning no copper, brass etc.....that you have in a metallic pad. And in the old school shops if its a set of old pads....far too many places like Beck Arnley and BAP geon back in the early 90s were showing and stocking an "organic" pad for the 411 and 412.
The organic, non-metallic pad is 100% the WRONG pad. From the factory they came with whT was properly termed....a "semi-metallic" pad. Meaning it had high metal content for higher temp rating.
The 411 and 412 NEVER came....at least in the US....with an organic pad.
An organic pad WILL make an otherwise perfect brake system feel spongy....and if you live in uot climates and drive a lot of medium to high speed with stop and go, on and off the brakes....the organic pad will overheat and glaze the rotors in no time. When that happens they will warp in short order.
A lot if this from what I have seen over the decades.....was primarily American sales nomenclature issues. Some companies for marketing started calling high metal content pads "full metal" or "metallic pads".
In short order...anything not listed as full metal....but was listed as semi-organic....which IS standard metallic.....started getting called "organic" by parts store idiots.
So you get people in parts stores and even in books like Chiltons.....calling semi-organic pads....plain organic. I have had flat out arguments with parts store know-nothings....who point to their parts book an say...... "da book sez organic....not metallic".
You need at minimum....a quality semi-metallic pad. 15 years ago or so.....the best "basic" brake pad for the 411/412 was the Repco "Metal-Master" pad. Not good enough for racing a 914 but was a full metallic pad and was just superb.
Repco became Axxis and then PBR Metal master. You can still buy them (I have no idea of current quality) for about $30 a set. Ray |
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lofoxx
Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2015
Posts: 63
Location: New Hampshire
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| Posted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 3:47 am Post subject: Re: "Squishy" brake pedal |
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As luck would have it, I don't have the box. I am checking with the guy I got them from up here.
Worst case, I just order the ones you recommend and re-install.
Thanks!
Loren
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21513
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 6:45 am Post subject: Re: "Squishy" brake pedal |
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| lofoxx wrote: |
As luck would have it, I don't have the box. I am checking with the guy I got them from up here.
Worst case, I just order the ones you recommend and re-install.
Thanks!
Loren |
Yes.....its an easy check as well. Pull off a wheel, pull the pins and remove one pad. If its a solid light tan color with NO metal flakes of copper or brass that catch the light.....its an organic pad.
Ray |
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lofoxx
Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2015
Posts: 63
Location: New Hampshire
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21513
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 10:17 pm Post subject: Re: "Squishy" brake pedal |
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Nice! Not familiar with Nakamoto.....but it lists a ceramic composite.....so betting its nice. Brake pad composition is a big deal! Good work! Ray |
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scott3t
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2014
Posts: 39
Location: Washington, DC
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| Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2020 9:17 pm Post subject: Re: "Squishy" brake pedal |
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| I’m getting new pads right now for my about to be newly rebuilt calipers. So I see full organic not good. But it looks like semi metallic is good and ceramic is even better? |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21513
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2020 10:32 am Post subject: Re: "Squishy" brake pedal |
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| scott3t wrote: |
| I’m getting new pads right now for my about to be newly rebuilt calipers. So I see full organic not good. But it looks like semi metallic is good and ceramic is even better? |
Mmmm.....slow down on the ceramic. Yes.....ceramic pads in the past few years have gotten to be very good and in the right formulation are now pretty rotor friendly. Ten years ago they were not so much.
Also our pad style is very archaic. Its not ....at least in my experience....shown yet whether they are quiet and have the right temperature and friction capability for our cars.
Keep an eye on postings from the 914 guys. Same brakes.....similar vehicle weights...and they play with a lot of different pads. Bear in mind whether they are speaking of track pads or street pads. Different animals.
A very good overall slightly better than stock pad are the Bosch "quiet cast" BP-31's. Rockauto has them for $20 a set.
I have a set of Porterfield R4-S ....which a highly recommended by a lof 914 and 911 daily driver street with an occasional track day. I have driven them on a 914 years ago.....very low fade. Low dust....better stopping. They are basically a full metallic but not really a race pad. They do not have to heat up like that to work well.
They are fairly equivalent to the high metal content semi-metallics I used to be able to get.....the Repco Metal master pads.....and later Mintex semi-metallic.
I have not installed them yet on my 412....it will probably be a year before it rolls. They are also more expensive. They run about $75 a set.
Ray |
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