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Wasted youth
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Location: California's Hot and Smoggy Central Valley
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 Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 5:56 pm Post subject: 1700cc Type 4 camshaft and lifters questions... |
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I dug these out of my 1700cc Type 4 engine, case #CB091129. This engine is suffering from a valve issue, and I have taken it apart. It has clearly been rebuilt before. First, the camshaft gear. What do you think of the teeth? Crankshaft gear is about the same, just a little brighter.
It is P/N 021.109.111B - 16H
What is the significance of the stamped B?
The camshaft has two raised rings and a light colored stripe. What does the light colored stripe indicate? Note the ghosting pattern on the lobes. I can feel the wear on a couple spots with my finger.
Bentley states on page 5-59, Sect. 17.1 this is a camshaft for an Automatic transmission due to having two narrow bands cast into the shaft on each side of the center bearing (See two arrows A). Bentley states the later camshafts have four rivets. Mine has five, and I feel some radial slop with the gear and shaft relationship.
Your thoughts?
These are the lifters that came out. They are not slightly domed where they meet the cam lobes, glass flat. Pretty sure these are hydraulic.
Here is the set safely stored in the order they were removed. One is missing while search out a replacement. It had wear due to rubbing on a bent tube. These are aluminum pushrods. What do you think of hydraulic lifters with aluminum pushrods? Bentley states on page 5-61, Sect. 17.2 the hydraulic lifter application uses steel pushrods.
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raygreenwood
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Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 6:23 pm Post subject: |
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The cam is shot. Standard type 4 wear pattern. Also...pretty much religion with me....cams in all used engines that I an going through with an eye to rebuild...I scrap the cam and lifters except for the gear unless its a magnesium gear...then scrap it too.
Are you sure those are hydraulics? It may just be the photo detail but they look like solids.
If the wear on the pushrod was just a single thin line about 2" from the rocker arm end and its not any deeper than about .010"....its from the wire pushrod tube keeper and the rod is just fine.
The wear on the gear teeth looks ugly. There should be virtually no wear marks to the crank gear.....unless this engine was just full of grit forever and it wore things down.
Check the inside of the oil pump for wear.
It looks like the lash between crank and cam gear was excessive. Ray |
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Randy in Maine
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| Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 7:43 pm Post subject: |
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| A dead Type 4 camshaft makes a great paper towel holder on the workbench. |
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Wasted youth
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Location: California's Hot and Smoggy Central Valley
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| Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 7:45 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the reply. I'm a newby when it comes to this. I thought those might have been hydraulic liters because they come apart into a few pieces... but I haven't gone too far investigating. I just looked again in the Big Green Book...and no, they don't really look externally like the hydraulic lifter shown.
Any recommendation for replacement supplier and part numbers? This engine will be mated up to an 003 automatic transmission. |
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Tcash
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Location: San Jose, California, USA
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Wasted youth
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Location: California's Hot and Smoggy Central Valley
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| Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 7:53 pm Post subject: |
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Tcash, very nice...once again jumping in with good links  |
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old DKP driver
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Location: Los Gatos,Ca.
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| Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 8:57 pm Post subject: type 2 camshafts and lifters |
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Actually Most all the cam grinders WANT the cores with the GEAR attached
and the lifters are Solids not Hydraulic (NO keeper spring inside end of lifter)
The UGLY aftermarket cam with the GIANT B is an aftermarket cam from who knows where and as Randy mentioned a candidate for a paperweight 
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Wasted youth
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Location: California's Hot and Smoggy Central Valley
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| Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 11:55 pm Post subject: |
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OK...so solid lifters.
And the camshaft gear is likely a magnesium gear, Volkswagen P/N 021.109.111B
Anyone recommend a recent source for correct cam and lifter replacement? |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
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Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 6:24 am Post subject: |
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| Wasted youth/adulthood wrote: |
OK...so solid lifters.
And the camshaft gear is likely a magnesium gear, Volkswagen P/N 021.109.111B
Anyone recommend a recent source for correct cam and lifter replacement? |
For type 4?.....go to either Webcam or the type 4 store. Ray |
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germansupplyscott
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| Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 6:49 am Post subject: |
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| Wasted youth/adulthood wrote: |
| And the camshaft gear is likely a magnesium gear, Volkswagen P/N 021.109.111B |
definitely magnesium gear. the aluminum gear is 111C.
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babysnakes
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Wasted youth
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| Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 9:59 am Post subject: |
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So I have contacted three possible vendors...and it's looking good for a stock cam at this point, but I am curious about the significance of the Automatic versus Manual transmission application.
Assuming mine is meant for an automatic as so indicated by the two cast rings (See Bentley notation above, along with points A in picture), why is this important?
Would a stock camshaft be so different or troublesome for an automatic transmission? |
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Wasted youth
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| Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 9:24 pm Post subject: |
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I imagine this is one of the things I can expect if I use my camshaft that feels like it has some play in the gear-to-camshaft joint:
Thanks for the picture goes to vwestyman and his Wild Westerner thread... |
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SGKent 
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Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 8:25 am Post subject: |
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| Wasted youth/adulthood wrote: |
So I have contacted three possible vendors...and it's looking good for a stock cam at this point, but I am curious about the significance of the Automatic versus Manual transmission application.
Assuming mine is meant for an automatic as so indicated by the two cast rings (See Bentley notation above, along with points A in picture), why is this important?
Would a stock camshaft be so different or troublesome for an automatic transmission? |
VW tuned the camshafts to the engine needs. They did not look at optimal HP and performance but rather torque, reliability, smog and fuel economy. Those camshafts are long gone. Also - each camshaft had a series of gears + to - sizes for each grind. Today the camshafts are limited. The "stock" webcam 142 for example is based on the "stock" 2.0L GA D-jet 914 / 912 95 - 100 HP engine instead of the "stock" 70 HP GD or GE bus engines.
without getting into a lengthy discussion, camshaft timing allows what is effectively the same as one person pushing another on a swing. It has the equal of timing, length and strength that it allows the air to move in and out of the cylinder. Like the person pushing, if the push is out of time it slows the person on the swing. Each cam has an engine speed that it works best at. That speed is higher on a webcam 142 than a stock bus cam. Thus the engine will produce more HP because it peaks at a higher RPM than the stock old automatic trans cam the bus came with. Each cam that is higher performance raises that engine RPM. The issue then becomes WHAT RPM DO YOU PLAN TO OPERATE YOUR ENGINE? Then pick a cam that performs best at that RPM. Choosing a cam that peaks between 6,000 and 8,000 RPM doesn't do you any good in a bus unless you plan on driving around town at 7,000 RPM all the time. There are many camshaft makers. Personally I like webcam, their people, their attention to detail and quality, their experience, etc.. I went with the Webcam 142 on my 1977 GD engine because it is a good solid camshaft which performs well between 4,000 and 5,000 RPM. That is when I most need power in my bus - pulling onto the freeway etc.. I liked Engle cams for T1 engines in my 1971 bus.
On a T4 engine you will want an aluminum "C" gear of the correct clearance / lash. A new cam will require new lifters. I use solids myself as adjusting them keeps me in touch with what the heads are doing.
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Wasted youth
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| Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 1:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Can anyone tell me how to tell how the cam gear is rated...as in the +1, 1, 0 -1, etc. calibration. Where is this indicated on the part? |
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SGKent
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Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 3:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Wasted youth/adulthood wrote: |
| Can anyone tell me how to tell how the cam gear is rated...as in the +1, 1, 0 -1, etc. calibration. Where is this indicated on the part? |
on the backside there is normally a light stamp mark with a - or +. You may need to clean the gear to see it. I think this is your photo?? Right under the date stamp on the photo [01/21/2008] looks like -2
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Wasted youth
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| Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 3:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Thanks! and the answer is... -2 |
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SGKent
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| Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Wasted youth/adulthood wrote: |
| Thanks! and the answer is... -2 |
it is also a "B" gear, which means magnesium. If you can find a -1. -2, or even -3 that ends with a "C" that might be a better gear to use. I used to buy up all the no-good camshaft cores I could find for $8 to $15 each where the gear is still in good condition, and build a set of gears of different numbers. Then when you build the engine you have some to choose from when setting the cam to crank lash. You'll never find the gear number you need when you are in a hurry building a motor. It may take you 2 - 5 years to build a good working set of different "C" gears.
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Wildthings
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| Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2014 1:13 am Post subject: |
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| Wasted youth/adulthood wrote: |
| Can anyone tell me how to tell how the cam gear is rated...as in the +1, 1, 0 -1, etc. calibration. Where is this indicated on the part? |
The number is related to the spacing of the crank and cam centerlines. It is really hard to machine the cam centerline exactly at the correct distance from the crank centerline, so VW compensates for what error occurs by providing cam gears that are slightly different in size.
Maybe someone should come up with a T4 cam gear exchange. |
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Tcash
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