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End of the road already sight for internal combustion classics?
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skills@eurocarsplus
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:24 pm    Post subject: Re: End of the road already sight for internal combustion classics? Reply with quote

Jon Schmid wrote:
skills@eurocarsplus wrote:
solar/wind is only good when the sun is shining or the wind is blowing....you need to store the power somehow.


If you're going in or out of Vegas on the 15 from or to LA you'll see those solar farms on the state line. The mirrors focus the sunlight onto the top of those towers and salt is melted in there. Then water is pumped through pipes which becomes steam and spins turbines. The salt gets so hot and retains so much heat that the plants generate steam all night long. And being out in the middle of the stinking desert means lack of sunlight is rarely an issue. As for wind, it's rare for me to drive through either Altamont or Banning Pass and not see those generators turning.


but where do you store enough energy for someplace like New England? ain't gonna happen here unless there is some sort of storage (battery) to do so...

tell you what...I'm not going to be the first one on an electric airbus either...and everything made today takes oil to do it...everything...so, I doubt it's going to go away any time soon. and if it does, I guess we'll adapt
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most VW enthusiasts are stuck in 80's price land.

Jake Raby wrote:
Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public.

Brian wrote:
Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:37 pm    Post subject: Re: End of the road already sight for internal combustion classics? Reply with quote

The best option for the New England area is nukes, The population density is way too high and renewables either can't operate (solar) or don't have the room (wind). Down the road there may be an answer using wave energy in the oceans, or energy beam technology from orbiting solar arrays ( the original design for the shuttle was based on this concept ). Regardless of how the electricity is created ICE's are are on their way out. I had an hour long conversation with my local NAPA manager who confirmed that the parts dump is happening very fast and internal memos warn of upcoming industry shifts in inventory.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:48 pm    Post subject: Re: End of the road already sight for internal combustion classics? Reply with quote

Manfred58sc wrote:
The best option for the New England area is nukes, The population density is way too high...

That's a bit drastic don't you think? Laughing
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skills@eurocarsplus
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 7:37 pm    Post subject: Re: End of the road already sight for internal combustion classics? Reply with quote

when I open shop tomorrow I will ask my napa store about this inventory dump....I find it hard to believe that the parts chain is going to fall apart over speculation....and can't see them destroying warehouses full of parts based on this, or not reordering parts.

so, if internal combustion is gone...or going out, how about ALL of the diesel generators at hospitals etc? home owner generators? how many battery operated power sources are going to run a household for a week + in an event like Irma?

I don't care...i'll buy a Stanley Steamer and burn cow shit before I rely on 100% electric....reason being I like being in control, and I like options. and not for nothing, just wait till all of this wonderful "free energy" does (if it does) take over the enormous tax hikes on power/utilities kicks in to pay for roads and bridges....

wait till that 0.12 kWh has 0.89 tax attached to it....
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gprudenciop wrote:

my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese.......
[email protected] wrote:
most VW enthusiasts are stuck in 80's price land.

Jake Raby wrote:
Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public.

Brian wrote:
Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:53 pm    Post subject: Re: End of the road already sight for internal combustion classics? Reply with quote

Moderator note:
Let's not get into direct political stuff please, we are already close to that with some of this topic
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 4:23 am    Post subject: Re: End of the road already sight for internal combustion classics? Reply with quote

Splitdog wrote:
VW is not the one to ask. Try caterpillar, or Cummins.

Cummins has already shown an electric drive Semi-truck concept, and they plan to bring it to market by 2019.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 6:06 am    Post subject: Re: End of the road already sight for internal combustion classics? Reply with quote

In the meantime the wife an I are enjoying our hybrid vehicles. Several weeks ago my first hybrid with well over 300 thousand miles on the clock flashed the triangle of death on the screen ( well informed prius owners know what this is) turned out to be a bad cell in traction battery. Replaced one cell 50 bucks he's back up running. Ya this shit will never catch on, it's all a joke, yuk yuk yuk. There is a future beyond buggy whips and outdated technology, can you see it? Why does it scare you? Take the pod home and be assimilated. Very Happy
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 6:34 am    Post subject: Re: End of the road already sight for internal combustion classics? Reply with quote

Q-Dog wrote:
Splitdog wrote:
VW is not the one to ask. Try caterpillar, or Cummins.

Cummins has already shown an electric drive Semi-truck concept, and they plan to bring it to market by 2019.


My point was that even in stringent California, diesel trucks are now allowed to constantly idle. That's how clean they are.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 6:35 am    Post subject: Re: End of the road already sight for internal combustion classics? Reply with quote

Driving an electric car is like artificial insemination. Some of us prefer the 'old way'. Wink
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 8:35 am    Post subject: Re: End of the road already sight for internal combustion classics? Reply with quote

Everyone seems hung up on this point of having huge battery storage to feed a massive power grid. That is NOT how this will work. Fossil fuels used for energy generation is not going to stop anytime soon. There needs to be a mechanism for "on-tap" power generation when the need arises.
Electric cars are most needed and most suitable for densely populated areas, such as cities. As an example, my commute to work every day is roughly ten miles, All withing Boston city limits. Mattapan to Charlestown, look it up for reference.
Take a stab at how long my commute is every day. Ok, it's 45 mins on good days,1-1.5 hours on bad days. To go ten miles. As I said in the IRMA thread about electric vehicles XXX miles range is XXX miles range. If you have an electric car with 100 mile range, you'll get the hundred miles. If you are literally not moving in traffic for 30 mins guess what? You lost almost ZERO range (allotting for listening to the radio, maybe fan blowing). In an ICE you are sitting there burning fuel, releasing pollutants into the air.
So that is the big difference. I understand the argument about, mining for the batteries, using fossil fuels anyways to generate the power, etc, etc, and I even agree with that to some extent, and I use those arguments myself in some instances. But the fact is that even having sourced the electricity through fossil fuels, the EFFICIENCY of the fuel being burned is like 100x greater than gas in an ICE (remember it takes energy to refine and deliver gas as well). How many times can you charge a Chevy Volt using a 5hp Honda generator and a gallon of fuel for example? More than ONE TIME? OK then, the electric car wins. That is really the bottom line.
The coal and gas powered electrical plants can keep chugging on and spewing pollution and if ICE are gone and not spewing NOX emissions at ground level then the population is 100% better off in terms of general health. Cities get cooler with less trapped heat coming off the ICEs as well.
Also, add to that the fact that single HOMES can generate power through solar panels and even small wind turbines (you can buy a small windmill for a house on Amazon for a couple thousand dollars) enough to charge a large home battery (like Tesla is/has been building) and theoretically, if your commute is as short as mine, you could charge your car off a giant battery one or even twice a week and the res of the time the battery trickle charges off the solar array. If your solar is set up right when it's done charging that battery your meter starts turning backwards and feeding the grid, and your neighbor uses some, and your monthly bill is lower. If you are overweight and REALLY creative you could hook your exercise bike up to an alternator and charge the house battery that way too! Powered by cheeseburgers! Laughing

The technology exists, the question now is making it economically viable for large portions of the population to use it. Look how far computers have come. Your phone is 100x more efficient and powerful than your first computer was 20+ years ago. To me, the main hurdle is "charging stations" like gas stations. This is a huge infrastructure issue and will cost TONS of money to implement, which is why I believe there will be a healthy mix of EC and ICE/Hybrid cars for a long time to come. The cities will see much more EC use, and the rural areas and suburbs will continue to use existing infrastructure that supports ICE. Even as I type this Boston, Lowell, and Worcester MA are putting street meter parking in place with charging equipment for EC vehicles. All the parking garages here in Boston have sections for EC with charging stations. In MA if you are all electric you get a special plate that allows you to park in these spots. If between work and home you can charge your car for pennies vs dollars for gas, I don't see how that would fail in the densely populated areas, esp if the average commuter can keep it charged at home, eliminating the need for "charging stations" the way we have gas stations.

The other hurdle is collecting road tax from EC, which is why there are pilot programs to use mileage via GPS to charge people. Insurance companies offer this now so you can get a low mileage discount. Those companies will be sitting on mountains of data to sell to gov't feasibility studies when state legislatures start researching the issue as Electric vehicles become more prevalent.

All this said I am STILL rocking an ALL ICE fleet of vehicles, with no plans on going electric anytime soon. I am poor, and as has been stated before, people will use whatever is economically viable to them. When gas hits $5-6 a gallon I will start considering it!
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79SuperVert wrote:

30 years from now, the next guy may not want your girlfriend, but he may want your classic car, depending on how nice you were to it.


asiab3 wrote:

Careful guys, a petulant child can grow up to be president these days.


**winter drivers: no survivors!**rust warrior**#keepbodyshopsbusy**
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 8:42 am    Post subject: Re: End of the road already sight for internal combustion classics? Reply with quote

what's gonna power all them air-o-planes so they can fly?
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 9:43 am    Post subject: Re: End of the road already sight for internal combustion classics? Reply with quote

hazetguy wrote:
what's gonna power all them air-o-planes so they can fly?

Pedal power. "Get fit while you fly"
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 12:14 pm    Post subject: Re: End of the road already sight for internal combustion classics? Reply with quote

hazetguy wrote:
what's gonna power all them air-o-planes so they can fly?


Jet Fuel I assume.

I don't think anyone with a brain actually thinks that all fossil fuels will be stopped from being used/ banned/ etc. But if you can limit their use and/or stretch the supply by getting better efficiency for what IS used, how is that bad?
The world will still need lubricants, plastics, and vinyl records Laughing power plants will still need the capacity to burn fossil fuels for energy...the oil companies have nothing to worry about, there will always be a demand for their products.

Gas in Europe is about $10 a gallon or more. Everyone here would be singing a different tune if that were the case in the US.
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79SuperVert wrote:

30 years from now, the next guy may not want your girlfriend, but he may want your classic car, depending on how nice you were to it.


asiab3 wrote:

Careful guys, a petulant child can grow up to be president these days.


**winter drivers: no survivors!**rust warrior**#keepbodyshopsbusy**
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 12:35 pm    Post subject: Re: End of the road already sight for internal combustion classics? Reply with quote

ROCKOROD71 wrote:

Gas in Europe is about $10 a gallon or more. Everyone here would be singing a different tune if that were the case in the US.


The actual cost of fuel in Europe is similar to that of anywhere else in the world due to market forces. The high cost of fuel at the pump is due to higher taxation in those countries.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 12:47 pm    Post subject: Re: End of the road already sight for internal combustion classics? Reply with quote

cdennisg wrote:
ROCKOROD71 wrote:

Gas in Europe is about $10 a gallon or more. Everyone here would be singing a different tune if that were the case in the US.


The actual cost of fuel in Europe is similar to that of anywhere else in the world due to market forces. The high cost of fuel at the pump is due to higher taxation in those countries.


I dion't dispute this, but if gas was $10 a gallon i think a lot more epople here would be "open" to the idea of driving electric all of a sudden! Laughing Myself included...
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79SuperVert wrote:

30 years from now, the next guy may not want your girlfriend, but he may want your classic car, depending on how nice you were to it.


asiab3 wrote:

Careful guys, a petulant child can grow up to be president these days.


**winter drivers: no survivors!**rust warrior**#keepbodyshopsbusy**
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 12:54 pm    Post subject: Re: End of the road already sight for internal combustion classics? Reply with quote

ROCKOROD71 wrote:
cdennisg wrote:
ROCKOROD71 wrote:

Gas in Europe is about $10 a gallon or more. Everyone here would be singing a different tune if that were the case in the US.


The actual cost of fuel in Europe is similar to that of anywhere else in the world due to market forces. The high cost of fuel at the pump is due to higher taxation in those countries.


I dion't dispute this, but if gas was $10 a gallon i think a lot more epople here would be "open" to the idea of driving electric all of a sudden! Laughing Myself included...


If fuel taxes in the US were raised to that level, you can bet the same tax level would hit those driving electric cars in one of the ways discussed earlier. GPS tracking of yearly mileage to determine road tax is on the near horizon.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 1:48 pm    Post subject: Re: End of the road already sight for internal combustion classics? Reply with quote

cdennisg wrote:
If fuel taxes in the US were raised to that level, you can bet the same tax level would hit those driving electric cars in one of the ways discussed earlier. GPS tracking of yearly mileage to determine road tax is on the near horizon.


Sadly, this is true.

California was close to passing a mandatory GPS tracking program. One of these days we will get there (sigh). Already there are those pushing legislation to tax electric cars because supposedly the road funds are dropping due to electric cars.

This is all BS. The number of electric and hybrid cars is too small to make a huge dent. The real culprit in funding shortfall for roads is the stealing of those funds for other purposes.

The really stupid thing here is that government offers tax BREAKS at purchase for electric cars to get cleaner air, and now wants to ADD taxes because they are so efficient! The government giveth and taketh away. And take their "cut" in each transaction! What a scam!

Back to the topic... I expect there will be a slow but not total migration away form fossil fuels. The laws and economics will dictate what changes over and when. Like has been posted, there are some things that the energy density and portability of FF will always be the better choice. but for everything else, the change is inevitable.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 2:46 pm    Post subject: Re: End of the road already sight for internal combustion classics? Reply with quote

KTPhil wrote:

Sadly, this is true.

California was close to passing a mandatory GPS tracking program.

This is all BS. The number of electric and hybrid cars is too small to make a huge dent. The real culprit in funding shortfall for roads is the stealing of those funds for other purposes.


California GPS tracking passed legislation in 2013 or 2014. They are in pilot program now to figure out how they will or won't administer it. It's for all cars, not just EV's and the gas tax for roads won't go away either

Stealing funds that were supposed to be used for specific programs:
That's What happened to Social Security too. Now it's almost insolvent.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 12:14 pm    Post subject: Re: End of the road already sight for internal combustion classics? Reply with quote

KTPhil wrote:
cdennisg wrote:
If fuel taxes in the US were raised to that level, you can bet the same tax level would hit those driving electric cars in one of the ways discussed earlier. GPS tracking of yearly mileage to determine road tax is on the near horizon.


Sadly, this is true.

California was close to passing a mandatory GPS tracking program. One of these days we will get there (sigh). Already there are those pushing legislation to tax electric cars because supposedly the road funds are dropping due to electric cars.

This is all BS. The number of electric and hybrid cars is too small to make a huge dent. The real culprit in funding shortfall for roads is the stealing of those funds for other purposes.

The really stupid thing here is that government offers tax BREAKS at purchase for electric cars to get cleaner air, and now wants to ADD taxes because they are so efficient! The government giveth and taketh away. And take their "cut" in each transaction! What a scam!

Back to the topic... I expect there will be a slow but not total migration away form fossil fuels. The laws and economics will dictate what changes over and when. Like has been posted, there are some things that the energy density and portability of FF will always be the better choice. but for everything else, the change is inevitable.


This is always my argument with people when it comes to taxes. They get it from you one way or the other. No sales tax in NH? Oh but lookit their property tax! They lower the state sales tax? cities and towns then raise meal tax or something else to fill in the void. It honestly is not worth fighting over most times. I always, ALWAYS vote no on any tax raise when its on the ballot, but people choosing one candidate over another etc based on tax policy, honestly people should just remove that from discussion, they are gonna get it from you no matter what. In America, for the most part, they just continuously squander our taxes. I don't care what part of the country we're talking about. Everything over time and over budget. Cost ovver-runs, deferred maintenance, blah blah blah. We are a nation of incompetent idiots who won't compromise. I watched an entire train station be demolished and rebuilt in 3 months when I was living in The Netherlands, came home to Boston and watched the MBTA take TWO YEARS to rip up and lay new brick and buld a 15 foot bus shelter. Thats the difference. I wouldn't blink an eye at paying higher taxes if they DID SOMETHING with the money.

When more and more people are driving non- gasoline powered vehicles they will get that road tax somewhere else. Tire tax maybe? Laughing
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79SuperVert wrote:

30 years from now, the next guy may not want your girlfriend, but he may want your classic car, depending on how nice you were to it.


asiab3 wrote:

Careful guys, a petulant child can grow up to be president these days.


**winter drivers: no survivors!**rust warrior**#keepbodyshopsbusy**
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 12:28 pm    Post subject: Re: End of the road already sight for internal combustion classics? Reply with quote

ROCKOROD71 wrote:
KTPhil wrote:
cdennisg wrote:
If fuel taxes in the US were raised to that level, you can bet the same tax level would hit those driving electric cars in one of the ways discussed earlier. GPS tracking of yearly mileage to determine road tax is on the near horizon.


Sadly, this is true.

California was close to passing a mandatory GPS tracking program. One of these days we will get there (sigh). Already there are those pushing legislation to tax electric cars because supposedly the road funds are dropping due to electric cars.

This is all BS. The number of electric and hybrid cars is too small to make a huge dent. The real culprit in funding shortfall for roads is the stealing of those funds for other purposes.

The really stupid thing here is that government offers tax BREAKS at purchase for electric cars to get cleaner air, and now wants to ADD taxes because they are so efficient! The government giveth and taketh away. And take their "cut" in each transaction! What a scam!

Back to the topic... I expect there will be a slow but not total migration away form fossil fuels. The laws and economics will dictate what changes over and when. Like has been posted, there are some things that the energy density and portability of FF will always be the better choice. but for everything else, the change is inevitable.


This is always my argument with people when it comes to taxes. They get it from you one way or the other. No sales tax in NH? Oh but lookit their property tax! They lower the state sales tax? cities and towns then raise meal tax or something else to fill in the void. It honestly is not worth fighting over most times. I always, ALWAYS vote no on any tax raise when its on the ballot, but people choosing one candidate over another etc based on tax policy, honestly people should just remove that from discussion, they are gonna get it from you no matter what. In America, for the most part, they just continuously squander our taxes. I don't care what part of the country we're talking about. Everything over time and over budget. Cost ovver-runs, deferred maintenance, blah blah blah. We are a nation of incompetent idiots who won't compromise. I watched an entire train station be demolished and rebuilt in 3 months when I was living in The Netherlands, came home to Boston and watched the MBTA take TWO YEARS to rip up and lay new brick and buld a 15 foot bus shelter. Thats the difference. I wouldn't blink an eye at paying higher taxes if they DID SOMETHING with the money.

When more and more people are driving non- gasoline powered vehicles they will get that road tax somewhere else. Tire tax maybe? Laughing


Maybe there isn't as much corruption and kick backs as there is here in the states. Every one thinks there isn't any corruption but there is a massive amount. It's all just hidden. It's at every level too Federal, State, County, Parish, and City. At least in Russia and other countries it's open, you can see it, and be a part of it. Here, you have to know someone who knows someone.
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