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Distributor, Carbs, Timing... Oh My!
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Seventy3Bus
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 9:06 pm    Post subject: Distributor, Carbs, Timing... Oh My! Reply with quote

I recently bought my first VW, a 1973 Bay Window Bus.

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I'm working my way through the "maintenance" section of Muir's book, and today I got to timing. After cleaning and setting the points, my plan was to static time the engine to get it close, and then use a timing light and tachometer to more precisely set the timing. However, neither Muir's book or Bentley gives a static timing figure for the 1973 bus, and I also discovered that instead of the stock vacuum advance distributor I have the Bosch 0 231 178 009 centrifugal advance distributor paired with dual Weber 34s that were pulled off of a Ghia... the centrifugal v.s. vacuum advance seems to be a big debate, but how will this affect the timing?

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Is there anything else I should consider? Here are a couple pics of the engine... anything out of the ordinary?



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Tcash
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 11:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Distributor, Carbs, Timing... Oh My! Reply with quote

Static time is 7.5* BTDC
http://www.oldvolkshome.com/ignition.htm#009

Not a Type IV engine but will give you the idea.
Classic VW Beetle Bug Ghia Bus How to Time Set Volkswagen Engine Timing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=787INwvir24
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rockerarm
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 8:35 am    Post subject: Re: Distributor, Carbs, Timing... Oh My! Reply with quote

Hi and WELCOME.
Being new here and to VW's you may elect to have someone qualified inspect the brakes and suspension at a minimum. Ideally, if you intend to do basic work on your own the shop/mechanic can guide you thru some of this.
At a minimum, I would replace the gas hoses with hose rated for todays blended fuels. Suggest better clamps and install the gas filter under the car for fire protection. I would also look into a relay for that electric fuel pump.
I would replace all 3 fluids in the car to establish a starting point for routine maintenance (engine, trans, brake).
By the way, are you exempt from emissions testing in your area?
Hope this helps, Bill.
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Glenn Premium Member
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 8:40 am    Post subject: Re: Distributor, Carbs, Timing... Oh My! Reply with quote

Tcash wrote:
Static time is 7.5* BTDC
http://www.oldvolkshome.com/ignition.htm#009

Sorry, but centrifugal only distributors need to be times at full advance.

30* BTDC @ 3500 rpm is the correct setting.
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Tcash
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 11:35 am    Post subject: Re: Distributor, Carbs, Timing... Oh My! Reply with quote

Glenn wrote:
Tcash wrote:
Static time is 7.5* BTDC
http://www.oldvolkshome.com/ignition.htm#009

Sorry, but centrifugal only distributors need to be times at full advance.

30* BTDC @ 3500 rpm is the correct setting.


Don't be sorry! I agree 100%. That is why I provided "The Old Volks Home" link:

"VW Models Equipped With "009" Distributor

Distributor: VW 126-905-205, Bosch 0231 178 009
Chrome Version: Bosch 9230 081 094
Can Use: 0231 178 001, 0231 178 003, 0231 129 010, 0231 129 019
Note: The 001 distributor has VW# 126-905-205 stamped above the Bosch number and is primarily used on industrial engines for constant high rpm use. The 003 was the successor to the 001 and 009 succeeded the 001 or 003 as per Bosch microfiche. The 001 or 003 Looks identical to the "009". I have a 001 and 003 in my "permanent" distributor collection (somebody's gotta have a hobby!).
Points: 01 030
Condensor: 02 086
Rotor: 04 033
Dust Cover: 039-905-241, Bosch 1230 500 139 > 1230 500 147
Cap: 03 010
Distributor Cap Clip: 034-905-265, Bosch 1231 251 033
Coil: 6 Volt - 00 016, 12 Volt - 00 012
Timing Set At:: Most applications - 5 to 7.5deg BTDC Static. Full advance should not exceed 32 degrees at 3000rpm with stroboscopic timing light. Here's a couple of links dealing with this subject:"

You can provide the Link on it, but you can't make em click on it.
Tcash

If I had a dollar for every time someone didn't click on the links provided, I would be rich!
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Glenn Premium Member
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 12:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Distributor, Carbs, Timing... Oh My! Reply with quote

Tcash wrote:
Glenn wrote:
Tcash wrote:
Static time is 7.5* BTDC
http://www.oldvolkshome.com/ignition.htm#009

Sorry, but centrifugal only distributors need to be times at full advance.

30* BTDC @ 3500 rpm is the correct setting.


Don't be sorry! I agree 100%. That is why I provided "The Old Volks Home" link:

"VW Models Equipped With "009" Distributor

Distributor: VW 126-905-205, Bosch 0231 178 009
Chrome Version: Bosch 9230 081 094
Can Use: 0231 178 001, 0231 178 003, 0231 129 010, 0231 129 019
Note: The 001 distributor has VW# 126-905-205 stamped above the Bosch number and is primarily used on industrial engines for constant high rpm use. The 003 was the successor to the 001 and 009 succeeded the 001 or 003 as per Bosch microfiche. The 001 or 003 Looks identical to the "009". I have a 001 and 003 in my "permanent" distributor collection (somebody's gotta have a hobby!).
Points: 01 030
Condensor: 02 086
Rotor: 04 033
Dust Cover: 039-905-241, Bosch 1230 500 139 > 1230 500 147
Cap: 03 010
Distributor Cap Clip: 034-905-265, Bosch 1231 251 033
Coil: 6 Volt - 00 016, 12 Volt - 00 012
Timing Set At:: Most applications - 5 to 7.5deg BTDC Static. Full advance should not exceed 32 degrees at 3000rpm with stroboscopic timing light. Here's a couple of links dealing with this subject:"

You can provide the Link on it, but you can't make em click on it.
Tcash

If I had a dollar for every time someone didn't click on the links provided, I would be rich!

Since it's in a Bus i'd do 30* maximum since Type 1 engines in a Bus tend to run hotter than a Beetle.
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Seventy3Bus
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 11:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Distributor, Carbs, Timing... Oh My! Reply with quote

Thank you for the help everyone!

I've static timed the engine to 7.5 degrees BTDC - the video was very helpful. I'm going to order a timing light, as the ones at my local auto parts stores are a little too pricey, so I'm going to have to wait until it arrives to time the engine to 30 degrees BTDC at full advance.

The engine starts and idles, but is running pretty rough, and I'm getting lots of popping from the carbs and jumpy acceleration when I drive it around the block. I'll be moving on to adjusting and balancing the carbs once my uni-syn arrives - hopefully that helps.

I have changed the engine oil, transmission fluid, and plan to change out the brake fluid when I replace the rubber sections of the brake lines and overhaul the front and back brakes. I'm going to try to do the brakes and suspension myself, but there is a VW shop in town, so I will reach out to them for a consult. I will be replacing all of the fuel lines, and will take the advice to move the fuel filter outside of the compartment, and will look into a relay for the pump... once I figure out what it is and how to do it.

I am exempt from emissions standards in my area due to the age of the bus.

One question I do have is about the vacuum advance port on the carburetors. One carb still has the hose running to it and the end of the hose has a bolt shoved in it, the other port has a bolt screwed into it as seen below. Is there a better way to do this? It seems like sort of a rough way to address the issue.

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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 3:49 am    Post subject: Re: Distributor, Carbs, Timing... Oh My! Reply with quote

Seventy3Bus wrote:
Thank you for the help everyone!

I've static timed the engine to 7.5 degrees BTDC - the video was very helpful. I'm going to order a timing light, as the ones at my local auto parts stores are a little too pricey, so I'm going to have to wait until it arrives to time the engine to 30 degrees BTDC at full advance.

The engine starts and idles, but is running pretty rough, and I'm getting lots of popping from the carbs and jumpy acceleration when I drive it around the block. I'll be moving on to adjusting and balancing the carbs once my uni-syn arrives - hopefully that helps.

I have changed the engine oil, transmission fluid, and plan to change out the brake fluid when I replace the rubber sections of the brake lines and overhaul the front and back brakes. I'm going to try to do the brakes and suspension myself, but there is a VW shop in town, so I will reach out to them for a consult. I will be replacing all of the fuel lines, and will take the advice to move the fuel filter outside of the compartment, and will look into a relay for the pump... once I figure out what it is and how to do it.

I am exempt from emissions standards in my area due to the age of the bus.

One question I do have is about the vacuum advance port on the carburetors. One carb still has the hose running to it and the end of the hose has a bolt shoved in it, the other port has a bolt screwed into it as seen below. Is there a better way to do this? It seems like sort of a rough way to address the issue.

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You can buy rubber caps to plug unused nipples but a piece of hose with a bolt in it is a dependable solution as the rubber caps will typically rot and split pretty quickly. Plastic caps are much better than rubber caps, but need to be made out of a gasoline resistance plastic. You can get allenhead flush plugs in both pipe and bolt threads to replace the bolt that is screwed into the one port. You could make your own plug by cutting off a bolt with the correct threads and use a hacksaw or Dremel to make a slot for a screw driver. Clean the area well and use high temperature silicone or Loctite to seal your plug.
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melville
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 4:03 am    Post subject: Re: Distributor, Carbs, Timing... Oh My! Reply with quote

Those are not vacuum ports for a vacuum advance. Those are for a balance pipe between the manifolds. That balance pipe can smooth out your idle.
The balance pipe can aldo be a source of manifold vacuum for power brakes. If they're blocked off you may not have the power brakes on your Bus hooked up.
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Tcash
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 10:29 am    Post subject: Re: Distributor, Carbs, Timing... Oh My! Reply with quote

will look into a relay for the pump... once I figure out what it is and how to do it.
Fuel pump relay wiring
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8076149#8076149

Weber 34 ICT
http://www.carburetion.com/diags/34ICTdiaginfo.asp
http://www.redlineweber.com/html/Tech/34_ICT_tunning.htm

https://www.google.com/search?q=duel+weber+34+ict&...ber+34+ict
https://www.google.com/search?q=tuning+dual+weber+...p;ie=UTF-8
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Seventy3Bus
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 2:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Distributor, Carbs, Timing... Oh My! Reply with quote

I replaced the fuel lines with 1/4" Gates Barricade 30R14, used the better hose clamps from BusDepot, and moved the fuel filter to just above the transmission. The old fuel lines rested on top of the engine block, but I routed the new ones forward and above the engine to keep them away from heat. Here's a pic:

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Before I replaced the fuel lines it sounded like one of the cylinders was missing, so I replaced the plugs with Bosch Super Plus 7904 WR8CC+ plugs (checked and set the gap on each to .024 in) and replaced the cables. Now it won't start. The engine turns over, but at most will run rough for 5-10 seconds then die. The fuel filter (see above pic) wasn't full, so I suspected that the engine wasn't getting fuel, but when I depress the throttle lever with the fuel pump running I can see fuel going into the carb. I tried adjusting the carbs in accordance with the instructions here:

http://www.redlineweber.com/html/Tech/34_ICT_tunning.htm

but didn't really see any noticeable difference after setting the idle speed screw and mixture screw to the recommended positions, then messing with them slightly from there. I double checked the timing an point gap on the distributor and they were both within spec.

Any idea what I should try next? I bought rebuild kits for the carbs, should I just pull them out clean and rebuild them?
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Tcash
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 2:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Distributor, Carbs, Timing... Oh My! Reply with quote

replaced the cables.
Follow the #1 spark plug wire to the distributor cap.
Pull the distributor cap off.
Turn the engine over using the Alternator nut. Until the rotor points to the location of the #1 spark plug wire.
Then arrange the wires in the following firing order.
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Good luck
Tcash
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 3:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Distributor, Carbs, Timing... Oh My! Reply with quote

I would agree with Tcash that it is probably your spark plug wire order. Since it will run at all, probably one or two of the wires are in their correct places.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 4:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Distributor, Carbs, Timing... Oh My! Reply with quote

I just double checked the wires to make sure. The #1 wire is on top of the groove in the distributor indicating TDC for the #1 cylinder, then the wires progress clockwise #4, #3, #2. That would have been a nice easy fix, but it looks like they are correct.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 5:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Distributor, Carbs, Timing... Oh My! Reply with quote

Make sure the rotor is actually pointing at the #1 plug wire when the timing marks are aligned. You can't always depend on the notch on the distributor housing.
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Tcash
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 6:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Distributor, Carbs, Timing... Oh My! Reply with quote

What does the white wire go to the one next to the green wire on the coil? Do you have a tachometer?
Did you install the new fuel pump. Look for an arrow on the pump. The arrow should be facing the carburetors. Not the gas tank.
Maybe the gas tank is clogged. Hook the fuel pump up to a gas can and see if it runs.
Don't be messing with the carbs just yet. The carbs are the last thing you adjust.

Good luck
Tcash
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 6:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Distributor, Carbs, Timing... Oh My! Reply with quote

Tcash wrote:

Don't be messing with the carbs just yet. The carbs are the last thing you adjust.

Good luck
Tcash


2x
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Seventy3Bus
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 12:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Distributor, Carbs, Timing... Oh My! Reply with quote

When the timing notch is pointing at 7.5 BTDC the rotor is pointing at the #1 spark plug wire, which lines up with the notch in the distributor. Then the plugs continue around as mentioned earlier. I disconnected one of the fuel lines and energized the fuel pump and it is pumping gas.

The white wire (actually white with thin green stripes) on the coil runs forward through the tin on the right side of the engine compartment, it goes into a larger black sheathing, then I'm not sure what it goes from there. Here are a couple more pictures where you can see the wires coming off the coil better:

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When I try to start the engine without pumping the accelerator first the engine does not turn over, then when I pump the gas it starts and runs rough for a couple of seconds and quits. Here is a link to a video:

https://youtu.be/ePbVT0QufLI
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 1:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Distributor, Carbs, Timing... Oh My! Reply with quote

Try removing the striped wire from your coil, it was originally for the factory diagnostic system and may be shorted out to some other wire from some reason. You can just tape it off as it is in no way needed for the engine to run.
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Seventy3Bus
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 3:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Distributor, Carbs, Timing... Oh My! Reply with quote

Removed the white and green striped wire and didn't see a noticeable change. If I feather the accelerator I can get the engine to run, but get some pops from the carbs. When I stop feathering the accelerator the engine dies
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