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Squeeze Cheese
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Joined: August 18, 2015
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Location: Atlanta, GA
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 Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 1:11 pm Post subject: Air conditioning upgrade w/ Gilmore + DPD evap = COLD (photos) |
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[url=https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=683355&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=]Air conditioning upgrade w/ Gilmore + DPD evap = COLD (photos)[/url]
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Hi guys, I know there’s a lot of threads on bay window air conditioning and I’m sure I’m not the first one to do it this way but I couldn’t find many specifics or photos on this particular install so I had to learn by doing and thus wanted to share it to ease the job for anyone looking to do the same. It’s not complicated but the instructions that come with the Gilmore kit are meant for a “from scratch” installation and not so much for a retrofit.
I’ve sweat through summers in my buses since I was 17 but now having young kids and living in Atlanta and wanting to use the bus for serious road trips (of course), the almost heat stroke at every stoplight and having to withstand the windows-open wind tunnel at speed had become downright unpleasant and was a deal-breaker with the family. Call me a wussy. But not anymore! Now even with an outside heat index of over 95F we’re cruising with the windows closed and it’s totally comfortable inside. The vents push out air as low as 43F. It’s glorious! Civilized.
My current 78’ Westy came “loaded” with the deluxe camper interior and had the dealer option DPD “under dash” AC unit. Fortunately, the previous owner left it all intact even though it wasn’t working. He mentioned that he tried to have it filled with refrigerant but the guy at the shop said the hoses leaked. So at first I thought about just replacing the hoses and doing whatever was needed to restore the original system, but after just a little research on the forums I realized that would be unsatisfactory.
If you haven’t done that research yourself, here’s the deal: The original York compressor robbed 10HP (a sixth of your total!) not to mention that the condenser fans, exposed to 40 years of life under the bus, would need to be rebuilt, and the old style Freon that the system was built to use is extremely expensive. According to those that had a bus with functioning AC, it was inadequate at best given the front-only location of the source of cool air and large interior area. I would also learn that the original evaporator electric blower motors, if they still work, are high-amp draw single speed that used resistors switches to achieve low speed. Basically, every single component is obsolete!
But I really like the look of my DPD under dash evaporator/blower/vent console and wanted to utilize it. It was after all, designed for the bus using the same texture as the rest of the dash and really fits in like it’s meant to be there. Plus it hides all that exposed wiring that tends to hang down and in my opinion makes the dash look more substantial. Also, it recycles the air from the interior which just makes sense.
Mine was in great shape but missing three of the four vent louvers, which is typical. I watched the classified and eventually bought a second whole junkyard evap that had all it’s louvers but a cracked casing. It’s worth noting that at least the lower part of the casing needs to be in solid condition because the condensation puddles to the inside bottom of it then out through the drain hoses which exit through the floor.
I did the research for a source of parts that have been proven to work together and of course went to Ed Muha with Gilmore Enterprises with my plan to build his AC kit but using my original evaporator. He said that it was totally doable and that the DPD evap would do just as good a job as the unit he sells with his kit, which by the way for the bus is kind of a box that sits below the glove box, involves cutting the fresh air ducts, and in my opinion looks “aftermarket” in the photos. An additional feature of the DPD unit is that it has two separate fans, but those would be replaced with true three-speed motors to minimize amperage.
So in a nutshell, if you want to do this and do it right, everything must be new except the original evaporator case and the evaporator coil that lives inside it. Same for the DPD “overhead” unit that many of you have in your tin tops or transporters. That means that if you find one in the classified or junkyard, that’s all you’ll need. Otherwise your kit to order from Ed is the following:
• Compressor, mounting bracket, belt, pulley, hardware
• Condenser
• Drier
• R134A Expansion Valve
• Hoses, fittings, O-rings
• 2 Blower motors and fans
• 2 Fan switches
• Thermostat
• Wiring Harness (Ed can customize his for use with two fans)
I should also preface by mentioning that my stock fuel injected 2.0 is maintained with care and running flawlessly, my fresh air flaps have new seals and don’t leak in outside air when closed, all my window and door seals are like new and of course, there’s no rust holes exposing the inside to the outside. It would be foolish to attempt air conditioning if those weren’t the case.
Ed must not put this particular package together very often because there were several items missing from the first box which delayed the job, but he did send them once I discovered what I needed so no big deal. As many have noted, he’s very good with answering the phone during business hours and guiding his customers in the right direction. I went to the right place, no doubt about it.
It’s a fairly simple job of mounting the components, running the hoses, and connecting everything together, then getting it leak checked and filled with refrigerant at a local shop that does AC work. The instructions were helpful but have Xeroxed photos and I had to interpolate a lot. Hopefully my photos save someone else the confusion.
I removed the rear and rear left corner tin and then the old York compressor. It’s a shame how the dealer hacked the tin piece and adjacent engine seal sheet metal to fit that thing it there. It was basically gone. But I found a junk yard unhacked rear left corner tin, which would be needed to seal the engine compartment since the new compressor is more compact and only requires one small slot drilled for one of the hoses.
Otherwise I just followed the instructions for using the Gilmore compressor mount. The engine cooling fan needs to come off to slip on a pulley (that looked identical to the old DPD one) and belt in front of it. The belt runs out the slot in the fan housing to the left and around the compressor with it’s pulley facing forward and it’s hinged to provide tightening it down with tension. Keep in mind that the compressor pulley is always turning with the engine with no resistance unless engaged electrically by turning the thermostat knob.
I then removed the original condenser from under the bus and I connected the #8 hose (medium diameter) hand tight to the mounted new compressor and ran it forward following the same route as the old one, which is forward through a hole into the left rear wheel well, up over the rear torsion bar, and forward under the bus to where the new condenser would be mounted. This was necessary because Ed already crimped the fittings onto the #8 and I needed to see where it would reach to, which ended up being a few inches aft of the location specified in the directions. I guess Ed’s hose routing is more direct.
I then removed the left front wheel and swapped out the old drier in the wheel well for the new one. After that I mocked-up the hoses following the original routing.
I already mentioned the #8 hose. There’s two #6 hoses. The short one goes from the front of the condenser to the drier but it was too short so I had to have one fabricated 6 inches longer. The longer #6 hose goes from the drier forward through the front floor and up to where the evaporator’s expansion valve will be located.
The last is the #10 hose, the large diameter that runs all the way from the expansion valve rearward following the others to the compressor. Ed sent mine with a little extra length and without the fitting crimped on because he didn’t know what the length it would have to be using my DPD evap. I basically laid it out next to the old one and added a few inches for the difference in where the compressor connections are, and had the local AC shop crimp on the fitting. Unfortunately I didn’t add enough because it wouldn’t quite reach to the evap so I had to route it behind the shock absorber to give me the needed slack. It should be fine there but I’ll need to watch it and if there’s any rubbing, replace it with a longer length.
Anyway, I already had my evap off so it was time to open it up. Basically, the top unscrews and lifts off the thing and you can remove the switches and thermostat and wiring.
Then the evaporator coil can be unscrewed and removed.
I removed the old expansion valve and per Ed’s recommendation, cleaned out the coil by filling it with denatured alcohol, let it sit overnight, then shook it around, drained it, and blew it out. I also degreased the thing and rinsed well to remove any odors. While I had the case open, I installed the missing vent louvers that I harvested from my junkyard spare which required regluing several of the little plastic brackets that hold them in. I reinforced the others too, since it’s obviously a weak point.
I swapped out the old fan motors for the new ones, a pretty straight forward replacement. I also discovered one of my drain hose fittings was broken off so glued that back on. Installed the new fan switches and thermostat, checking with Ed to make sure the wiring harness was hooked up properly. Reinstalled the evap coil, then inserted the thermostat’s capillary temperature probe into the coil’s fins, which can’t be cut so you just gently coil up the rest, closed the case, and screwed on the new expansion valve…
…which also has a temperature probe that gets clipped to the adjacent #8 hose evaporator outlet pipe, then both pipes and the expansion valve get wrapped completely in the cork tape so they don’t collect condensation which would drip on the floor (photo shows not yet completed taping).
Then it was time to remount the evap under the dash, which was far more difficult than removing it. It’s held up only by metal brackets that wedge up under the far left and right of the dash but don’t actually attach…
…and after you somehow manage to run the power wires (one to ignition-on, one to battery power, and one to the condenser) and attach the two hoses, it finally gets attached in the center to the under side of the hand brake mounting bracket.
The problem is that these three attachment points are just screwed into the plastic evap casing and bear the weight of the thing and all the bumps in the road. Mine was deformed and the holes stripped, so I had to redrill offset holes and add more screws and creatively reinforce where needed. But it’s super solid now.
Next was to connect all the hoses with the O-rings and torque hand tight, run the last wires, and use all the provided clamps and zip ties to secure everything exposed to the world.
I then headed back to the local AC shop to have the system leak checked and filled with R134A. I was quite amused at the guy’s amusement that I had slapped together what they considered a “aftermarket retrofit” on this old VW that had and I quote “one in a million chance of actually working”. Yet it passed a pressure check and a vacuum check and they filled it, we cranked it up, and it passed all their checks. It happened to be the hottest day of the summer in Atlanta with a heat index of over 100F. I drove home in pride.
The very next day I loaded up the bus heavy with vacation gear, two kids and a wife, and drove 300 miles over 7 hours from Atlanta to Destin, FL in the middle of July, and here’s the results:
The conditions over most of the day were around 95F with high humidity making the heat index over 100F. We started out with the AC on low but eventually ended with it at full whack for hours on end. Windows and fresh air vents closed.
Air temps at the vents get as low as 43 before the thermostat tells the condenser to cycle (a necessary function). Without a doubt, up front at the source, it’s quite cool. Lower 70s. Cold even. For rear passengers, it’s in the mid 80s. A bus is just a very large greenhouse I guess. I can see why the Vanagons got an additional rear evaporator. But, according to the wife, it’s very comfortable sitting in the back, which I attribute to the fact that the AC removes so much humidity from the air. Turning it off while driving as a test, the bus rapidly goes to unbearable inside. So it makes a HUGE difference.
The HP draw from the compressor is minimal. I was able to maintain 65MPH on level highway as usual, CHT around 375. Actually, no noticeable power loss while cruising. At idle at a stoplight, when the system cycles on I lose about 400RPM. I compensated by setting my normal idle to about 1300 which feels weird. I want to find a solution to for this, I read some suggestions on the other AC threads but found none implemented. Anyone?
Also, the condenser fan is loud. It sounds like I’m driving a vacuum cleaner bus! Maybe it’s resonating with the frame? I wonder if I insert some rubber washers at the attachments, if that will help.
Cons: I have created for myself an extra layer of parts removal anytime I need to do any work under the dash or remove the engine. And it’s an extra expense as well because the shop needs to empty and refill the system every time.
But I’m super happy with the install. It’s awesome to know that driving the bus in the summer does not have to come with buckets of sweat. For the family, it means we can take it on vacations in the dead of summer, which is something we love to do.
Now to get started looking into that Espar gasoline heater kit…
_________________
78' Dakota Beige Westy. “Skills” EJ25 engine conversion w/ zero mile factory short block, Delta 1000 cams, heater core and modified Gilmore AC. Matt Steedle 091 transaxle upgrade w/ 4.14 ring and pinion, Folts aluminum gear carrier. General Grabber AT2s on stock wheels. Solar powered aux battery w/ inverter.
Last edited by Squeeze Cheese on Tue Aug 08, 2017 4:00 pm; edited 5 times in total |
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16879
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 1:31 pm Post subject: Re: Air condition using Gilmore parts + DPD evap = COLD! (photos) |
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removing the humidity is huge. and you're right it is a big greenhouse.
when I did the same set up for my Texas guy, the results were impressive. with a bus full of people, 80 and dry is better than 70 and humid. the amount of water this thing produces is comedy....like a waterfall.
good deal. and don't feel bad about being a "wimp".....when it's hot and nasty out I usually don't take the bus. it can handle it....but I can't
_________________
| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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Squeeze Cheese
Samba Member
Joined: August 18, 2015
Posts: 268
Location: Atlanta, GA
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| Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 1:40 pm Post subject: Re: Air condition using Gilmore parts + DPD evap = COLD! (photos) |
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| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
| the amount of water this thing produces is comedy....like a waterfall. |
Bingo! I was amazed at how the condensation literally flows out the drains in a stream onto the pavement.
I can't wait till someone informs me that I may have sprung a radiator leak ;o)
_________________
78' Dakota Beige Westy. “Skills” EJ25 engine conversion w/ zero mile factory short block, Delta 1000 cams, heater core and modified Gilmore AC. Matt Steedle 091 transaxle upgrade w/ 4.14 ring and pinion, Folts aluminum gear carrier. General Grabber AT2s on stock wheels. Solar powered aux battery w/ inverter. |
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babysnakes
Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2008
Posts: 7107
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| Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 3:43 pm Post subject: Re: Air condition using Gilmore parts + DPD evap = COLD! (photos) |
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| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
| .....when it's hot and nasty out I usually don't take the bus. it can handle it....but I can't |
Don't visit Florida! Even in the winter. |
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white74westy
Samba Member
Joined: May 02, 2011
Posts: 777
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| Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 3:45 pm Post subject: Re: Air condition using Gilmore parts + DPD evap = COLD! (photos) |
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| babysnakes wrote: |
| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
| .....when it's hot and nasty out I usually don't take the bus. it can handle it....but I can't |
Don't visit Florida! Even in the winter. |
  This X2 |
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cmonSTART
Samba Member
Joined: July 15, 2014
Posts: 1915
Location: NH
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| Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 4:47 pm Post subject: Re: Air condition using Gilmore parts + DPD evap = COLD! (photos) |
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wow, great write up - thanks for doing that!
Any guess what the total BTU of the unit is?
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'78 Bus 2.0FI
de K1IGS |
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tommu
Samba Member
Joined: November 15, 2011
Posts: 618
Location: L.A.
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| Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 6:37 pm Post subject: Re: Air condition using Gilmore parts + DPD evap = COLD! (photos) |
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Great post. Thanks for taking the time to write it. I've been wondering how to piece mine back together.
I have the earlier under dash unit with one (noisy) fan and two separate condensers. Yours looks like it'll move more air than mine. I'd be interested in comparative specifications for both units. I guess information like that wasn't expected to be publicly available back in 1976.
Does anyone know a source for a) the blower in the single blower (Cool Air?) unit and b) the louvres of which I need two.
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16879
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 7:12 pm Post subject: Re: Air condition using Gilmore parts + DPD evap = COLD! (photos) |
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| babysnakes wrote: |
| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
| .....when it's hot and nasty out I usually don't take the bus. it can handle it....but I can't |
Don't visit Florida! Even in the winter. |
been there in both winter and summer. initial impression was "fuck, it's like Connecticut just further south...and the bugs down here will eat you"
_________________
| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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tootype2crazy
Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2007
Posts: 1276
Location: St. Louis Missouri
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| Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 7:23 pm Post subject: Re: Air condition using Gilmore parts + DPD evap = COLD! (photos) |
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I've done this on a friend's bus, same parts from Ed and everything. It works extremely well. It's well worth the investment of cash and effort. I plan to do it to my own bus soon, when I have more of both.
_________________
air-cooled or nothing for me
1978 Sunroof Deluxe Bus (daily driver)
1978 Transporter (mom's, making into a camper)
1970 Single Cab 2.1 turbo/EFI 6 Rib, 78 front beam, vanagon backing plates on rear (project)
2001 GTI VR6 (wife's) |
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vwwestyman
Samba Member
Joined: April 24, 2004
Posts: 5688
Location: Manhattan, Kansas, USA
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| Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 8:10 pm Post subject: Re: Air condition using Gilmore parts + DPD evap = COLD! (photos) |
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Wow, great thread!
I'm glad to see he is willing and able to customize the kit a bit according to the parts you've got and want to use.
My '78 came with the same dealer-installed AC which I pulled way back in 2002 because it didn't work, but I saved most of the components besides the hoses for whenever I might want to get it going again.
Now that I've got the TDI in there, and (knock on wood!!) running well, maybe I can look at installing a similar kit. Even better if he'll work with customizing the kit a bit, so I could use the original under dash unit and the TDI's compressor.
I'll have to make the goal of next spring assuming I don't blow up another motor or something, ha ha.
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Dave Cook
President, Wild Westerner Club
1978 Champagne Edition Westy, repowered to '97 Jetta TDI
1973 Wild Westerner
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Hoody
Samba Member
Joined: November 28, 2007
Posts: 1948
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| Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 2:38 am Post subject: Re: Air condition using Gilmore parts + DPD evap = COLD! (photos) |
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| Ed's the man. Same goes for CCOOL ones. Everything updated with his components.His knoleddge is unprecedented. |
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Squeeze Cheese
Samba Member
Joined: August 18, 2015
Posts: 268
Location: Atlanta, GA
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| Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 5:23 am Post subject: Re: Air condition using Gilmore parts + DPD evap = COLD! (photos) |
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| vwwestyman wrote: |
| Now that I've got the TDI in there, and (knock on wood!!) running well, maybe I can look at installing a similar kit. Even better if he'll work with customizing the kit a bit, so I could use the original under dash unit and the TDI's compressor. |
That sounds like a great idea. I'd take a guess that you'd just need everything I bought except the compressor. Maybe there'd be a different thermostat to work with yours? Ed would know!
_________________
78' Dakota Beige Westy. “Skills” EJ25 engine conversion w/ zero mile factory short block, Delta 1000 cams, heater core and modified Gilmore AC. Matt Steedle 091 transaxle upgrade w/ 4.14 ring and pinion, Folts aluminum gear carrier. General Grabber AT2s on stock wheels. Solar powered aux battery w/ inverter. |
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Squeeze Cheese
Samba Member
Joined: August 18, 2015
Posts: 268
Location: Atlanta, GA
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| Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 5:27 am Post subject: Re: Air condition using Gilmore parts + DPD evap = COLD! (photos) |
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| tommu wrote: |
I have the earlier under dash unit with one (noisy) fan and two separate condensers. Yours looks like it'll move more air than mine. I'd be interested in comparative specifications for both units. I guess information like that wasn't expected to be publicly available back in 1976.
Does anyone know a source for a) the blower in the single blower (Cool Air?) unit and b) the louvres of which I need two. |
Well I just learned something, I didn't know there was an earlier version of it. If it's the same motor as the duel one, Ed Muha has those. Either way, he can figure it out.
_________________
78' Dakota Beige Westy. “Skills” EJ25 engine conversion w/ zero mile factory short block, Delta 1000 cams, heater core and modified Gilmore AC. Matt Steedle 091 transaxle upgrade w/ 4.14 ring and pinion, Folts aluminum gear carrier. General Grabber AT2s on stock wheels. Solar powered aux battery w/ inverter. |
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Squeeze Cheese
Samba Member
Joined: August 18, 2015
Posts: 268
Location: Atlanta, GA
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| Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 5:28 am Post subject: Re: Air condition using Gilmore parts + DPD evap = COLD! (photos) |
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| cmonSTART wrote: |
| Any guess what the total BTU of the unit is? |
Nope but if you have a means of determining that, I'd gladly provide the raw data ;o)
_________________
78' Dakota Beige Westy. “Skills” EJ25 engine conversion w/ zero mile factory short block, Delta 1000 cams, heater core and modified Gilmore AC. Matt Steedle 091 transaxle upgrade w/ 4.14 ring and pinion, Folts aluminum gear carrier. General Grabber AT2s on stock wheels. Solar powered aux battery w/ inverter. |
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MonkeySee
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Posts: 209
Location: Big D
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| Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 7:44 am Post subject: Re: Air condition upgrade Gilmore parts + DPD evap = COLD! (photos) |
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| Now I'm on the lookout for an under dash unit instead of my Westy jumpseat unit. |
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SamboSamba22
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Sunshine Air Cooled
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Joined: July 12, 2004
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Location: 1724 Snug Harbor Place, Sarasota, Florida 34234
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| Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 9:55 am Post subject: Re: Air condition upgrade Gilmore parts + DPD evap = COLD! (photos) |
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Thanks for taking the time and showing us all the work! Nicely done!
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Check us out!
www.sunshineautogarage.com
941-365-6684
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Abscate
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Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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| Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 10:30 am Post subject: Re: Air condition using Gilmore parts + DPD evap = COLD! (photos) |
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| cheesecrackers75 wrote: |
| cmonSTART wrote: |
| Any guess what the total BTU of the unit is? |
Nope but if you have a means of determining that, I'd gladly provide the raw data ;o) |
You can SWAG it if you know the horsepower load on the engine.
The original ones were about 6 HP and the Gilmores about half that.
You can convert HP to Watts by Multiplying by 750
Then convert to BTU/hr by multiplying Watts by 3.4
The cooling capacity will then be 3-4x that number.
If you know the EER rating you skip all that, but I don't think we labelled these things back then.
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warezdog
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2016
Posts: 25
Location: Southwest Florida
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| Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 4:44 pm Post subject: Re: Air condition upgrade Gilmore parts + DPD evap = COLD! (photos) |
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Awesome write-up! On your trip to FL did you notice any large loss of MPG or have you had a baseline to compare it to before?
Great job too, it had to be a PITA at times! I bet it was super rewarding to feel that cold air blow for the first time and the look on the lil' ladies face when she felt it too! |
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Wasted youth
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2012
Posts: 5134
Location: California's Hot and Smoggy Central Valley
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| Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 7:27 am Post subject: Re: Air condition upgrade Gilmore parts + DPD evap = COLD! (photos) |
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Your success at this has given me a huge hard-on. I have an overhead unit, with the option to use the additional piece that reaches forward, thanks to one of our Samba members who gave it to me.
Not sure my tired 1700cc engine is ready for more work, though...
You mention "the compressor fan is loud..." which I think you mean the Condensor fan...? Anyway, see in your picture that this unit is directly screwed to the frame. So vibration will transmit easily.
You can probably drop that down enough to add rubber mounts which should greatly reduce that problem.
As far as the rear of the camper being warmer than the front, I'm surprised it cooled down much at all. That's great news! Maybe you can add a couple of small fans to help move the air? Like those little dashboard fans truckers once used.
Excellent write up... thanks for spending the time to share your experience! |
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