end play question

[DanHoug]

i'm in the middle of a 2.1 rebuild and have set up the end play largely following the Boston Bob video. ended up with a very clear and repeatable .0045" using shims from 2 engines and installing all 5 bolts torqued to 40ft lb. for testing. this is measured without the last square end shim in place and no seal nor connecting rods. and this is a new rebuilt GoWesty flywheel.

installed the diesel pilot bearing with the integral seal, Sabo 12mm flywheel seal and seated it home against the case pocket deeper than flush, countersunk the flywheel for the protruding pilot bearing, and then torqued up the flywheel to 82 ft lb.

flywheel turns perfectly smooth with no resistance but now i have no end play moving the flywheel back and forth by hand, as i did when setting the clearance. haven't pried with screwdrivers to check clearance but the flywheel distorts enough when squeezing it by hand it just doesn't seem reliable. is something wrong or is this normal?

-dan

[DanHoug]

one more piece of info... i DID oil the shims when installing them but had tested end play with them dry. don't know if that would take up the clearance tho.

-dan

[IdahoDoug]

Dan,

The experience with not feeling endplay after you assemble on final is exactly what I experienced. I actually made a comment on that here a few months ago when I finished my rebuild as to the good logic. I think the reason the measurements are done dry without seals, etc is so that you can feel it on the dial indicator and accurately measure the larger number with a firm "thump, thump". When you then add the last shim/spacer and oil to the clearance you will be at a tolerance where you cannot feel the movement any longer. I could not, either, and made the comment that the dry measurements give confidence and THAT's the finesse part.

Then you simply throw the remaining oiled parts on and arrive at the place you're supposed to be. Final clearance is tight, and the oil damps the movement as well as fills a good % of such a small tolerance.

You're fine.

Doug
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1987 2WD Wolfsburg Vanagon Weekender "Mango", two fully locked 80 Series LandCruisers. 2017 Subaru Outback boxer. 1990 Audi 90 Quattro 20V with rear locking differential, 1990 burgundy parts Vanagon. 1984 Porsche 944, 1988 Toyota Supra 5 speed targa, 2002 BMW 325iX, 1982 Toyota Sunrader

[DanHoug]

thanks, Doug, for taking the time to post your observations! onward!!

-dan

[Vanagon Nut]

This is a distant memory, but was there any mention in Boston Bobs video (and here too?) about crank position when testing end play? Since DanHaoug is testing without con rods installed, that may be moot.
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1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA

1988 West DIY 50º ABA

VE7TBN

[DanHoug]

Bob wanted pistons at TDC/BDC so that the crank journals were in transition from up/down and that put the lowest forces on the crank. with rods out, moot point and i could get a very clean end play 'shake'.

-dan

[fraggle00]

Double check the thrust bearing! It can shift ever so slightly during the install of the flywheel and result in a drastically shortened time between rebuilds. Half of mine was gone when I took it apart after my goof.
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'91 Vanagon Carat
'87 Porsche 928S4 DOWN
'12 Fiat 500 Abarth

[jberger]

I always set endplay with oiled shims. If you have no endplay (verified on a dial indicator) after installing the seal, then something is amiss. It could be as simple as improper clearance with oil film. I would reset the clearance.

J

[DanHoug]

uff ta, jberger... i've read your posts and you have way more experience than i so your comments give me pause. but everything measured so well and repeatably following Bob's video, my reading of the Bentley, and other sources. i've got the flywheel and clutch assembly mounted and Loctite'd. i'm inclined not not take it apart.

Fraggle00- i greased the case side of the thrust shim and am confident it did not slip down. i was tuned in to that and the shims with oil held nicely as a pack. with .0045" clearance, there's no way the flywheel could turn so freely if the thrust shim had dropped down as it is quite thick.

-dan

[IdahoDoug]

I also focused my precision on the pre-shim thrust measurement and the thickness of the shims. On assembly with oil I was then confident. I also was very careful on the thrust shim since it was covered here well. Sounds like Dan did the same focus. I have fantastic oil pressure and a purring WBX and look forward to Dans report.
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1987 2WD Wolfsburg Vanagon Weekender "Mango", two fully locked 80 Series LandCruisers. 2017 Subaru Outback boxer. 1990 Audi 90 Quattro 20V with rear locking differential, 1990 burgundy parts Vanagon. 1984 Porsche 944, 1988 Toyota Supra 5 speed targa, 2002 BMW 325iX, 1982 Toyota Sunrader

[Aryana]

Anyone got a link to Boston Bob's videos?

[jberger]

[DanHoug]

got a scare and a laugh yesterday with regard to the crank... torqued the rear pulley to 250 ft lbs (figured it was close enough to 259 and i used some Loctite) and went to spin the crank... it was locked up solid! crap. then i realized i still had the flywheel lock on! all is well.

having a heckuva time trying to Plastigauge the rods while the crank is in the block. gotta figure a way to keep the end cap from dropping off while placing the rod and keeping the Plastigauge in place. one more go today then i'll probably say screw it and just go with the new bearings without measurement. journals look beautiful and rods are rebuilt.

-dan

[tmart]

Can I second Aryana's request for a link to these videos?

I've lost confidence in my endplay measurements and think I'm going to take the flywheel off, take the seal off, and start over. My main concern ws I didn't sho any endplay unless I kept pushing the crankshaft. When I let go it went basically back to zero. I'd like to make sure I go through these steps right.
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1990 Vanagon 2.2L Manual
The van that samba built

[DanHoug]

the videos are hard to find. see if this link works.

https://get.google.com/albumarchive/10129022810330...muykqNrDRI

[DanHoug]

mine would make a light 'chunk-chunk' sound as i pushed/pulled on the FW. the dial indicator did pretty much stop at each travel limit, didn't need to keep pressure on it so much.

i spent hours setting it, second guessing myself. i started out having a friend present and helping me and i finally gave up and stopped, knowing it needed to go at this with a fresh head and be alone when i did it.

i think my issue of initial non-repeatability was a slightly bent shim. i had shims from 2 engines to work with and by an organized process of going thru them sequentially finally got where i was pretty comfortable. my measurements of the shims didn't seem to correlate very well with the measured endplay.

-dan

[Aryana]

[tmart]

Thanks dan, I can see why these videos are so sought after, very thorough. Curious how anyone finds these? How did you get to that link?

My flywheel made that same sound before too, not now. I'm thinking my thrust washer may have dropped as he described in the video. Guess I'm taking it apart again... Glad I know more specifically what to be looking for.
_________________
1990 Vanagon 2.2L Manual
The van that samba built