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Need help - She's dead Jim!
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westofcenter
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 2:17 pm    Post subject: Need help - She's dead Jim! Reply with quote

My 1982 Air-Cooled Westfalia has been running ok for 5 years or so and last week she stalled and has never been able to restart. I have checked and replaced the following:

Fuel Filter - replaced (had some gook)
Fuel Pump - checked and was ok
Fuel Injectors - taken out and each one cleaned with carb cleaner
Fuel Pressure - around 40 lbs ok
Spark firing on each spark plug wire
Assuming no major vacuum leaks

What is really interesting is that when I take one of the hoses out of the air intake housing, she kind of starts with the accelerator floored but sounds like it is running on 2 or 3 cylinders. So at this point I am stumped. Could I have fried the engine? I don't have all the tools to test compression and started to check the ohms but clueless.

Any suggestions or ideas?
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raoul mitgong
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 2:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Need help - She's dead Jim! Reply with quote

Check compression?
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Terry Kay
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 2:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Need help - She's dead Jim! Reply with quote

You didn't fry the engine, you finally fried the valves.
No compress, no start.

She's one Dead Johnny.
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Bills85Westy
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 3:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Need help - She's dead Jim! Reply with quote

Well, its either spark or fuel and it sounds like you have spark, and fuel at the fuel pump. Can you test to see if the injectors are firing (or that you are getting voltage to each of the injectors)?

This could be an ECU issue or grounding issue.

Good luck!
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Terry Kay
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 3:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Need help - She's dead Jim! Reply with quote

Prior to performing all kinds of rediculas tests, pull the plugs and see if the engine has any compression.

Then float off into other engine failure possibilities.
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westofcenter
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 3:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Need help - She's dead Jim! Reply with quote

Yes, off to get a compression test kit and will update with results - x fingers!
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 8:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Need help - She's dead Jim! Reply with quote

Hmm, sudden change like that would not normally indicate a compression issue. Compression changes happen gradually with age. But it's a good data point to know. Will it run using starter fluid?
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westofcenter
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2016 6:20 am    Post subject: Re: Need help - She's dead Jim! Reply with quote

Here are the results of the compression test: (very heavy sigh)

1 = 100
2 = 109
3 = 0 (yes zero)
4 = 99

I'm assuming this is very bad. What does this typically mean, engine rebuild? Rings? Subaru conversion?
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2016 6:25 am    Post subject: Re: Need help - She's dead Jim! Reply with quote

On an Air Cooled?

Burnt Valve,
Sticking Valve
Exhaust Valve head broke off.
Valve seat came loose.

All require a head removal.

Get out the tool box!

Dave
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2016 6:55 am    Post subject: Re: Need help - She's dead Jim! Reply with quote

#3. what is new....

Zero is probably not cause by a piston failure but a burnt valve.

Remove the valve cover, put engine at TDC, you will see it right away.

http://www.benplace.com/tdc.htm

The following is not from an Air-cool the the principle is the same, watch for evenness - valve tip distance.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


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Terry Kay
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2016 7:42 am    Post subject: Re: Need help - She's dead Jim! Reply with quote

<<Hmm, sudden change like that would not normally indicate a compression issue. Compression changes happen gradually with age. But it's a good data point to know.>>

Air cooled.

First thing to do is take a compression test--all the time, always & forever.

You run em' with the rest of the crowd, you will be eating them valves for lunch.
Normally & usually it will indicate a smoked valve or seat--first.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2016 8:49 am    Post subject: Re: Need help - She's dead Jim! Reply with quote

Thanks for the feedback guys! Is there anything I can do with the engine in or would I have to remove it to fix a burnt valve or seat?

For example, if something is "stuck" is there anyway to unstick it taking off a valve cover?
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Terry Kay
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2016 9:14 am    Post subject: Re: Need help - She's dead Jim! Reply with quote

You will find out pretty quick that dropping the engine will be a heck of a bunch easier to remove the sheet metal surronding that engine.

It's all gotta come off way prior to getting to that head.
Do yourself a big favor and do both heads.

If this one kissed a valve goodbye, it would be real good to do both sides.

You'd kick yourself if you did only the one, get the engine back in only to have a valve go bad &do this all again for the other head.
Do them both.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2016 4:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Need help - She's dead Jim! Reply with quote

Just a question......Are you saying that it ran fine and now doesn't even try to start? It just at one moment stopped running?

Even with a dropped valve on one cylinder it should still run........
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westofcenter
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2016 4:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Need help - She's dead Jim! Reply with quote

Yes it was running with what seemed like a little missing and then just stalled. After that, it would turn over and with the accelerator all the way to fhe floor, would almost sound like it would start but never would. When I pulled off the hose to the aux air intake, I could get it to start but definitely only running on 3 cylinders and only for a few seconds.

No compression at all when testing with gauge. Will be testing tomorrow with a cpl tablespoons of oil in the spark plug. Guess that will tell me if is a bad ring or something else.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2016 5:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Need help - She's dead Jim! Reply with quote

westofcenter wrote:
Yes it was running with what seemed like a little missing and then just stalled. After that, it would turn over and with the accelerator all the way to fhe floor, would almost sound like it would start but never would. When I pulled off the hose to the aux air intake, I could get it to start but definitely only running on 3 cylinders and only for a few seconds.

No compression at all when testing with gauge. Will be testing tomorrow with a cpl tablespoons of oil in the spark plug. Guess that will tell me if is a bad ring or something else.


Assuming the engine still turns over freely, I think you have more than one problem. Even with bad compression and no running on one cylinder it should still run.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2016 5:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Need help - She's dead Jim! Reply with quote

Bills85Westy wrote:
westofcenter wrote:
Yes it was running with what seemed like a little missing and then just stalled. After that, it would turn over and with the accelerator all the way to fhe floor, would almost sound like it would start but never would. When I pulled off the hose to the aux air intake, I could get it to start but definitely only running on 3 cylinders and only for a few seconds.

No compression at all when testing with gauge. Will be testing tomorrow with a cpl tablespoons of oil in the spark plug. Guess that will tell me if is a bad ring or something else.


Assuming the engine still turns over freely, I think you have more than one problem. Even with bad compression and no running on one cylinder it should still run.


Not so much if it's an open intake Valve puffing compression pressure back into the intake really screwing with intake air flow.

Dave
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Terry Kay
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2016 6:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Need help - She's dead Jim! Reply with quote

As soon as you drop off 25% of your total engine displacement, to an open exhaust or intake, it'll be enough to prevent it from running, plus the other 90 psi from a compression reading on the other hole isn't nothing to be taking to the bank.

Just for the sake of conversation it's almost 50% short of being all there.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2016 11:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Need help - She's dead Jim! Reply with quote

Are you prepared for an engine pull?

'Cause it needs to come out.

Sorry Man.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2016 12:06 am    Post subject: Re: Need help - She's dead Jim! Reply with quote

FWIW, my '83 air cooled engine had zero compression on cylinder 1 and it still would start and run fine. I'll have to put some more thought into what would be going on though. The fact that flooring it can start it puzzles me.

Either way youre going to replace/fix this head. If you have compressed air, do a leak down test for fun. It would be good practice for the future. I just went through a sunken exhaust valve and what everyone is saying is true. Drop the engine and replace both heads.
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