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westofcenter Samba Member
Joined: March 16, 2012 Posts: 34 Location: Bloomfield, NY
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Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 2:17 pm Post subject: Need help - She's dead Jim! |
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My 1982 Air-Cooled Westfalia has been running ok for 5 years or so and last week she stalled and has never been able to restart. I have checked and replaced the following:
Fuel Filter - replaced (had some gook)
Fuel Pump - checked and was ok
Fuel Injectors - taken out and each one cleaned with carb cleaner
Fuel Pressure - around 40 lbs ok
Spark firing on each spark plug wire
Assuming no major vacuum leaks
What is really interesting is that when I take one of the hoses out of the air intake housing, she kind of starts with the accelerator floored but sounds like it is running on 2 or 3 cylinders. So at this point I am stumped. Could I have fried the engine? I don't have all the tools to test compression and started to check the ohms but clueless.
Any suggestions or ideas? _________________ 1982 Westy
1986 Vanagon GL |
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raoul mitgong Samba Member
Joined: July 05, 2009 Posts: 1338 Location: Denver, CO
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Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 2:20 pm Post subject: Re: Need help - She's dead Jim! |
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Check compression? _________________ 84 Westy with a 2.1 (Groover)
86 Tintop Syncro (Crow)
86 Tintop Syncro to Westy project (Tom Servo)
91 Westy (Only the top 12 inches of this van (a burn victim)) |
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Terry Kay Banned
Joined: June 22, 2003 Posts: 13331
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Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 2:35 pm Post subject: Re: Need help - She's dead Jim! |
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You didn't fry the engine, you finally fried the valves.
No compress, no start.
She's one Dead Johnny. _________________ T.K. |
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Bills85Westy Samba Member
Joined: August 01, 2009 Posts: 423 Location: Napa CA
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Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 3:06 pm Post subject: Re: Need help - She's dead Jim! |
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Well, its either spark or fuel and it sounds like you have spark, and fuel at the fuel pump. Can you test to see if the injectors are firing (or that you are getting voltage to each of the injectors)?
This could be an ECU issue or grounding issue.
Good luck! _________________ 89 Tristar Syncro Doka - White
85 Westfalia Syncro (conversion)
SAH 1.8T Conversion - 2005 AWP
Engine Conversion Thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=612144&highlight=
85 Doka L345 Grey - 1.9L |
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Terry Kay Banned
Joined: June 22, 2003 Posts: 13331
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Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 3:37 pm Post subject: Re: Need help - She's dead Jim! |
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Prior to performing all kinds of rediculas tests, pull the plugs and see if the engine has any compression.
Then float off into other engine failure possibilities. _________________ T.K. |
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westofcenter Samba Member
Joined: March 16, 2012 Posts: 34 Location: Bloomfield, NY
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Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 3:44 pm Post subject: Re: Need help - She's dead Jim! |
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Yes, off to get a compression test kit and will update with results - x fingers! _________________ 1982 Westy
1986 Vanagon GL |
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IdahoDoug Samba Member
Joined: June 12, 2010 Posts: 10239 Location: N. Idaho
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Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 8:17 pm Post subject: Re: Need help - She's dead Jim! |
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Hmm, sudden change like that would not normally indicate a compression issue. Compression changes happen gradually with age. But it's a good data point to know. Will it run using starter fluid? _________________ 1987 2WD Wolfsburg Vanagon Weekender "Mango", two fully locked 80 Series LandCruisers. 2017 Subaru Outback boxer. 1990 Audi 90 Quattro 20V with rear locking differential, 1990 burgundy parts Vanagon. 1984 Porsche 944, 1988 Toyota Supra 5 speed targa, 2002 BMW 325iX, 1982 Toyota Sunrader |
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westofcenter Samba Member
Joined: March 16, 2012 Posts: 34 Location: Bloomfield, NY
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Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2016 6:20 am Post subject: Re: Need help - She's dead Jim! |
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Here are the results of the compression test: (very heavy sigh)
1 = 100
2 = 109
3 = 0 (yes zero)
4 = 99
I'm assuming this is very bad. What does this typically mean, engine rebuild? Rings? Subaru conversion? _________________ 1982 Westy
1986 Vanagon GL |
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djkeev Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007 Posts: 32432 Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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ftp2leta Samba Member
Joined: October 11, 2004 Posts: 3271 Location: Montreal
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Terry Kay Banned
Joined: June 22, 2003 Posts: 13331
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Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2016 7:42 am Post subject: Re: Need help - She's dead Jim! |
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<<Hmm, sudden change like that would not normally indicate a compression issue. Compression changes happen gradually with age. But it's a good data point to know.>>
Air cooled.
First thing to do is take a compression test--all the time, always & forever.
You run em' with the rest of the crowd, you will be eating them valves for lunch.
Normally & usually it will indicate a smoked valve or seat--first. _________________ T.K. |
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westofcenter Samba Member
Joined: March 16, 2012 Posts: 34 Location: Bloomfield, NY
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Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2016 8:49 am Post subject: Re: Need help - She's dead Jim! |
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Thanks for the feedback guys! Is there anything I can do with the engine in or would I have to remove it to fix a burnt valve or seat?
For example, if something is "stuck" is there anyway to unstick it taking off a valve cover? _________________ 1982 Westy
1986 Vanagon GL |
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Terry Kay Banned
Joined: June 22, 2003 Posts: 13331
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Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2016 9:14 am Post subject: Re: Need help - She's dead Jim! |
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You will find out pretty quick that dropping the engine will be a heck of a bunch easier to remove the sheet metal surronding that engine.
It's all gotta come off way prior to getting to that head.
Do yourself a big favor and do both heads.
If this one kissed a valve goodbye, it would be real good to do both sides.
You'd kick yourself if you did only the one, get the engine back in only to have a valve go bad &do this all again for the other head.
Do them both. _________________ T.K. |
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Bills85Westy Samba Member
Joined: August 01, 2009 Posts: 423 Location: Napa CA
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Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2016 4:26 pm Post subject: Re: Need help - She's dead Jim! |
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Just a question......Are you saying that it ran fine and now doesn't even try to start? It just at one moment stopped running?
Even with a dropped valve on one cylinder it should still run........ _________________ 89 Tristar Syncro Doka - White
85 Westfalia Syncro (conversion)
SAH 1.8T Conversion - 2005 AWP
Engine Conversion Thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=612144&highlight=
85 Doka L345 Grey - 1.9L |
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westofcenter Samba Member
Joined: March 16, 2012 Posts: 34 Location: Bloomfield, NY
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Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2016 4:52 pm Post subject: Re: Need help - She's dead Jim! |
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Yes it was running with what seemed like a little missing and then just stalled. After that, it would turn over and with the accelerator all the way to fhe floor, would almost sound like it would start but never would. When I pulled off the hose to the aux air intake, I could get it to start but definitely only running on 3 cylinders and only for a few seconds.
No compression at all when testing with gauge. Will be testing tomorrow with a cpl tablespoons of oil in the spark plug. Guess that will tell me if is a bad ring or something else. _________________ 1982 Westy
1986 Vanagon GL |
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Bills85Westy Samba Member
Joined: August 01, 2009 Posts: 423 Location: Napa CA
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Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2016 5:04 pm Post subject: Re: Need help - She's dead Jim! |
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westofcenter wrote: |
Yes it was running with what seemed like a little missing and then just stalled. After that, it would turn over and with the accelerator all the way to fhe floor, would almost sound like it would start but never would. When I pulled off the hose to the aux air intake, I could get it to start but definitely only running on 3 cylinders and only for a few seconds.
No compression at all when testing with gauge. Will be testing tomorrow with a cpl tablespoons of oil in the spark plug. Guess that will tell me if is a bad ring or something else. |
Assuming the engine still turns over freely, I think you have more than one problem. Even with bad compression and no running on one cylinder it should still run. _________________ 89 Tristar Syncro Doka - White
85 Westfalia Syncro (conversion)
SAH 1.8T Conversion - 2005 AWP
Engine Conversion Thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=612144&highlight=
85 Doka L345 Grey - 1.9L |
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djkeev Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007 Posts: 32432 Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2016 5:40 pm Post subject: Re: Need help - She's dead Jim! |
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Bills85Westy wrote: |
westofcenter wrote: |
Yes it was running with what seemed like a little missing and then just stalled. After that, it would turn over and with the accelerator all the way to fhe floor, would almost sound like it would start but never would. When I pulled off the hose to the aux air intake, I could get it to start but definitely only running on 3 cylinders and only for a few seconds.
No compression at all when testing with gauge. Will be testing tomorrow with a cpl tablespoons of oil in the spark plug. Guess that will tell me if is a bad ring or something else. |
Assuming the engine still turns over freely, I think you have more than one problem. Even with bad compression and no running on one cylinder it should still run. |
Not so much if it's an open intake Valve puffing compression pressure back into the intake really screwing with intake air flow.
Dave _________________ Stop Dead Photo Links how to post photos
Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473
Vanagon
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537
Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert |
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Terry Kay Banned
Joined: June 22, 2003 Posts: 13331
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Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2016 6:27 pm Post subject: Re: Need help - She's dead Jim! |
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As soon as you drop off 25% of your total engine displacement, to an open exhaust or intake, it'll be enough to prevent it from running, plus the other 90 psi from a compression reading on the other hole isn't nothing to be taking to the bank.
Just for the sake of conversation it's almost 50% short of being all there. _________________ T.K. |
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seans67 Samba Member
Joined: October 06, 2004 Posts: 453 Location: End of the Road, Alaska
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Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2016 11:51 pm Post subject: Re: Need help - She's dead Jim! |
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Are you prepared for an engine pull?
'Cause it needs to come out.
Sorry Man. _________________ Sean
'71 Squareback '71 Porsche 914 ‘80 Camper '87 Syncro Weekender 1.8T '87 Wolfsburg Weekender '97 Toyota Land Cruiser ‘03 Audi A6 Quattro 3.0 ‘04 Audi A4 Avant Quattro 1.8T ‘05 Audi A4 Quattro 3.0
‘06 Porsche Cayenne Turbo S |
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mrcool Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2015 Posts: 358 Location: Bozeman, MT
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Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2016 12:06 am Post subject: Re: Need help - She's dead Jim! |
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FWIW, my '83 air cooled engine had zero compression on cylinder 1 and it still would start and run fine. I'll have to put some more thought into what would be going on though. The fact that flooring it can start it puzzles me.
Either way youre going to replace/fix this head. If you have compressed air, do a leak down test for fun. It would be good practice for the future. I just went through a sunken exhaust valve and what everyone is saying is true. Drop the engine and replace both heads. |
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