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jmberg Samba Member
Joined: October 14, 2010 Posts: 64 Location: Boston
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Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 1:23 pm Post subject: shore power, inside outlet, and grounding? |
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Hi Folks,
I'd like to install a 110 volt hook-up on my Westy weekender. Unlike the campers, this was not stock on these Multivans (weekenders), so there is no existing wiring. My intention is to connect that external shore hookup to 1) a GFCI outlet inside the van and 2) a battery charger that I'm also planning to add to my starter/aux battery setup.
My question/concern is around grounding. If I'm running romex from the hook-up to the outlet, what/where is the best way to ground? I don't want a hot/electrified van.
This is pretty much what I'm looking to do: http://www.instructables.com/id/Adding-Shore-Power-to-a-VW-Camper-Van/. Comments in the post express serious concern about grounding. It's not clear what exactly he should have done. Where should this be grounded? And is a fuse or breaker needed?
THANKS! |
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termuehlen Samba Member
Joined: May 02, 2012 Posts: 986 Location: Redwood City
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Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 1:34 pm Post subject: Re: shore power, inside outlet, and grounding? |
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This thread has a copy of the Bentley wiring diagram and a photograph of the original romex style 110v wiring in a Westfalia. You can see how the wiring was originally grounded in the photo.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=617624 _________________ 1988 Westfalia automatic Subaru OBD1
1986 syncro tintop wbx
Last edited by termuehlen on Fri Jul 28, 2017 1:39 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Farf Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2009 Posts: 463 Location: Colorado
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Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 1:38 pm Post subject: Re: shore power, inside outlet, and grounding? |
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Don't forget a circuit breaker too. |
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Vanagon Nut Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2008 Posts: 10347 Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 2:44 pm Post subject: Re: shore power, inside outlet, and grounding? |
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This is for a Canadian Vanagon Westfalia but this part likely the same for US Westies.
This part bonds the shore power ground to chassis. It's a relatively stout sized piece and on this Westy, located just forward of the pillar left of the rear bench seat. (called B pillar ??) On the US model I'd assume the location is higher up.
I don't know the metal type.
Neil.
_________________ 1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
1988 West DIY 50º ABA
VE7TBN |
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jmberg Samba Member
Joined: October 14, 2010 Posts: 64 Location: Boston
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Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 5:32 pm Post subject: Re: shore power, inside outlet, and grounding? |
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Perfect thread! Thanks so much. |
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djkeev Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007 Posts: 32432 Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 3:19 am Post subject: Re: shore power, inside outlet, and grounding? |
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I have a "weekender" and added shore power.
I used GoWesty's single electric box on the outside.
I purchased, but have not yet installed, a fused switch from Home Depot.
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Cooper-Bussmann-SSU-Ser.../100192465
Just an FYI.....
While romex works and has been used in RV's for many years, it is not the best choice.
It is solid copper, as such it is susceptible to work hardening, getting brittle when flexed.
In a house, once installed there is no flexing. Solid copper works great!
In any apparatus subject to movement and vibration stranded wire is typically used to ward off the work hardening risk.
In a vehicle there is constant vibration while underway.
How much solid wire have you ever seen used in any type of Vehicle? My experience is Virtually zero.
Even stranded wire when flexed excessively will fail, wires feeding electric in doors is the most notable example of this, the frequent opening and closing eventually hardens the wires and they crack.
Change your plans to use stranded wire, it isn't a "must do" but would be a wise choice to make.
Dave _________________ Stop Dead Photo Links how to post photos
Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473
Vanagon
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537
Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert |
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Crooked Designer Samba Member
Joined: March 22, 2018 Posts: 308 Location: Chicago, IL
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Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2021 9:49 am Post subject: Re: shore power, inside outlet, and grounding? |
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Digging up this old topic. Can post any photos of what this ground is supposed to look like? I'm assuming this is the ground for the 120v shore power hook up. Also wondering if I can successfully ground an auxiliary battery at this location. Anyone have any advice for how to add a solid ground for a 100ah battery in this location?
This first image is not my van, but shows the context of the location better than my photo.
This is actually my situation.
_________________ '85 Westy full camper, Subaru 2.5L, 5 speed SubiGears + 5speedbus shifter kit |
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Gnarlodious Samba Member
Joined: September 28, 2013 Posts: 2312 Location: Adobe Jungle USA
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Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2021 10:54 am Post subject: Re: shore power, inside outlet, and grounding? |
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Just a warning that GFCIs and campervans are trouble. The device is often overly sensitive or defective and will trip unexpectedly, often in the middle of the night when it is cold and wet outside. This happens because metal conductors may be exposed to moisture from inside (humans exhaling) or outside (dew forming), so current leaking across that moisture causes the GFCI to trip. Be aware of this problem, avoid bare wire connections in isolated corners where condensation occurs. Any exterior connections should be protected from road mist, splashing water or dew. _________________ Vanagon ’83 diesel AAZ w/Giles injection, 5spd 4.57R&P+TBD and a '78 diesel Rabbit |
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Crooked Designer Samba Member
Joined: March 22, 2018 Posts: 308 Location: Chicago, IL
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Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2021 11:07 am Post subject: Re: shore power, inside outlet, and grounding? |
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Gnarlodious wrote: |
Just a warning that GFCIs and campervans are trouble. The device is often overly sensitive or defective and will trip unexpectedly, often in the middle of the night when it is cold and wet outside. This happens because metal conductors may be exposed to moisture from inside (humans exhaling) or outside (dew forming), so current leaking across that moisture causes the GFCI to trip. Be aware of this problem, avoid bare wire connections in isolated corners where condensation occurs. Any exterior connections should be protected from road mist, splashing water or dew. |
All of the wiring in the photos is stock and I haven't had a problem with it tripping yet while on shore power. I was asking about how that ground is attached to the chassis and if I could also ground an aux battery at that point. _________________ '85 Westy full camper, Subaru 2.5L, 5 speed SubiGears + 5speedbus shifter kit |
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space Samba Member
Joined: November 19, 2017 Posts: 669
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Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2021 11:38 am Post subject: Re: shore power, inside outlet, and grounding? |
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Imo there should be no problem using this as a Battery grnd
the van is isolated from "earth ground" thru its tires
if u plug into a grounded shore plug the path of least resistance in the event of a fault is through the cord to ground (green wire)
Nearly always there is no power on the ground wire (120v)
The only time u should see power on the green wire (120v) is if the neutral (white) has come loose
The return path is thru the neutral (white wire) in the cord
On the other hand the ground for the battery is the path of least resistance from the 12v pos
hth
T _________________ 82 westy
w:
2.5 JDM Subie
Rear discs |
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Vanagon Nut Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2008 Posts: 10347 Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2021 3:36 pm Post subject: Re: shore power, inside outlet, and grounding? |
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Crooked Designer wrote: |
Can post any photos of what this ground is supposed to look like? I'm assuming this is the ground for the 120v shore power hook up. Also wondering if I can successfully ground an auxiliary battery at this location. Anyone have any advice for how to add a solid ground for a 100ah battery in this location?
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I would not use the OE westy shore power ground point for the battery. It's likely that the battery ground wire terminal would be larger or "clunkier" to connect to the shore power ground part. IOW, I would not alter the OE design of that shore power ground point. But, it might be a good idea to clean that ground connection and make sure it's connected to bare clean body metal. (It looks corroded in that area)
As suggested by more knowledgable people than me, I connected my aux battery ground to a rear lap seat belt bolt. If you're planning to install the battery in that space beside the water tank, the added length of ground cable to a seat belt bolt should not cause any real voltage drop or increase costs by much. Ease of routing that new ground wire would depend on wire size, obviously.
Neil. _________________ 1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
1988 West DIY 50º ABA
VE7TBN |
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DuncanS Samba Member
Joined: October 17, 2013 Posts: 4580 Location: New Hampshire
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Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2021 3:43 pm Post subject: Re: shore power, inside outlet, and grounding? |
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Personally, I would not ground any 110v to any metal part of the car. What happens is there is a failure somewhere such that 110 is fed through the ground? 12v DC would not like this. The point of house grounds are to make sure that any problem will go to the ground or as they say in the UK--earth.
This is where it needs to go--the earth. If the van is sitting on rubber tires, then the whole car becomes hot and anyone standing on the earth and touching the car will become part of there circuit. |
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crazyvwvanman Samba Member
Joined: January 28, 2008 Posts: 9895 Location: Orbiting San Diego
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Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2021 4:03 pm Post subject: Re: shore power, inside outlet, and grounding? |
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The van body metal should be grounded to the 110v input power ground.
This is because if the 110v hot should get shorted to the grounded van body it will immediately trip the breaker(s) instead of just making the body hot and possibly killing someone.
Putting a GFCI outlet in the cabinet can supplement this but can't fully replace the safety aspect of having the van body grounded to the shore power 110v wiring.
Mark |
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fxr Samba Member
Joined: December 07, 2014 Posts: 2300 Location: Bay area CA
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Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2021 4:05 pm Post subject: Re: shore power, inside outlet, and grounding? |
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Absolutely the shore power ground should be bonded to the chassis.
For my house battery ground (my 300Ah LFP is in that cabinet) I used an 8-way bonding strip which connects the shore power ground, the chassis, and the battery system. _________________ Jim Crowther
1984 1.9l EJ22 Westy Wolfsburg Edition
Vespa GTS 300 |
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Crooked Designer Samba Member
Joined: March 22, 2018 Posts: 308 Location: Chicago, IL
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Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2021 4:30 pm Post subject: Re: shore power, inside outlet, and grounding? |
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I like the seatbelt bolt idea, but I’d rather keep it in the same cabinet. fxr, do you have any photos of the ground setup you have?
Per the 120v ground, I’m likely to clean it but definitely not changing the stock setup. It works fine and the breaker works. No need to start messing with that IMO (other than cleaning the corrosion of course) _________________ '85 Westy full camper, Subaru 2.5L, 5 speed SubiGears + 5speedbus shifter kit |
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fxr Samba Member
Joined: December 07, 2014 Posts: 2300 Location: Bay area CA
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0cean Samba Member
Joined: February 29, 2012 Posts: 1149 Location: California
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Crooked Designer Samba Member
Joined: March 22, 2018 Posts: 308 Location: Chicago, IL
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Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 12:38 pm Post subject: Re: shore power, inside outlet, and grounding? |
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Another shore power question.
Can I replace the stock 120v outlet next to the fridge with one of these and eliminate the stock circuit breaker? Ideally it would be wired directly to the roamax from the shore power hookup? I'm assuming if yes, that I would need to replace the one behind the fridge as well. I think I've read somewhere that these receptacles are independently wired, but my assumption is that they share the 15A breaker next to the bench seat.
For those that don't click links:
_________________ '85 Westy full camper, Subaru 2.5L, 5 speed SubiGears + 5speedbus shifter kit |
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DuncanS Samba Member
Joined: October 17, 2013 Posts: 4580 Location: New Hampshire
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Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 2:27 pm Post subject: Re: shore power, inside outlet, and grounding? |
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Shore power ground to car chassis. I may be in the minority here, but give me a reason why you want to do it? House circuits are different in that they have three wires. Positive, neutral and ground. The neutral wire carries the return currant through insulated wires which go back to the panel and are grounded to the world through a copper rod driven 6' into the soil. The ground wire is there as a safety so if power should inadvertently go to the metal around the fixture or the device itself such as a kitchen range, then the current is conducted through the ground circuit and back to the world. Unless your T3 has an automatic hydraulic copper rod ram which always triggers at camp sites, then you don't have what houses have.
Try this on for size. You go to a Ma Pa campground, as most are, and Pa has connected the leads backwards in the box where you plug in. He put the positive on the ground lead. This automatically makes your car hot. When you walk up to open the door in bare feet from your swim, you become the copper rod.
Why ever risk this? I suspect GFI's would not trigger this as the leads are in the wrong order for it to recognize a fault. Take a GFI and wire it intentionally wrong as Pa did and plug in your coffeemaker and see what happens. If the GFI trips, is the ground no longer hot?
When working on your car with a three wire electric tool, do you connect the ground to the car chassis?
On boats, 12 or 24 DC and AC are kept well away from each other except through an inverter and then there are no common grounds across the device.
Duncan |
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space Samba Member
Joined: November 19, 2017 Posts: 669
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Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 3:20 pm Post subject: Re: shore power, inside outlet, and grounding? |
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Crooked Designer wrote: |
Another shore power question.
Can I replace the stock 120v outlet next to the fridge with one of these and eliminate the stock circuit breaker? Ideally it would be wired directly to the roamax from the shore power hookup? I'm assuming if yes, that I would need to replace the one behind the fridge as well. I think I've read somewhere that these receptacles are independently wired, but my assumption is that they share the 15A breaker next to the bench seat.
For those that don't click links:
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The purpose of a GFCI Is Life Safety NOT Overload protection
Overload protection is accomplished by the fuse
In short you can change outlets but you still need the fuse/circuit breaker
As far as whether to ground the chassis to the 120v system:
Most residential neutral wires (white) share a common connection through the panel then on to the ground rod or underground water pipe (as is common in city of chicago)
If the van is grounded to the 120v system the "Path of least resistance" will be that ground wire > shore power grnd > ground rod
The resistance of the human body is much higher than copper/aluminum, therefore the errant voltage, will more times than not, go from the van to ground rather than through you
The ground bar that DuncanS posted earlier is usually mounted to the panel (metal) where the connection between the green and the white are made
There is no difference (0 reading between the green and the white)
On a 120v system the green wire carries no load 95% of the time
A 12v system the groundcarries a load 100% of the time
One last note:
The Van receives its earth ground thru the ground on shore plug
So a three prong tool would not need to be directly connected to the body, but it is electrically connected thru the shore plug and associated grounding wiring/vehicle metal
T _________________ 82 westy
w:
2.5 JDM Subie
Rear discs |
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