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splitjunkie
Samba Member
Joined: April 04, 2006
Posts: 4092
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 Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 6:15 pm Post subject: Re: What would you do with this 52 Zwitter? |
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| ajl1971 wrote: |
IMO I think we are missing the point here.
1. You can't call a Concours restoration unless you bring the car to bare metal. You need to know exactly what you are dealing with in the first place. That's what most reputable and honest shops do. Then you fix the problematic area and move on. Call it something else but don't mislead people.
2. If you can't tell from what is original and what is not, you are a failure as a business man unless you looked the other way.
3. If you sell a car as something that is not, what do you call it ? Fraud ? Scam ?
So now tell me what happened with this build.
Look at this video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDiQUG1GNsQ&feature=youtu.be
and this one ; (look at min 2:47)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPWRiMPiZqQ
and this one :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avcMhRbJgCs
and why a collectable car as the Zwitter is this was never done according to the photos on the gallery. |
Let me be clear here. I wouldn't use that shop. They appear to be a typical danish panel, skim coat bondo type of shop. Based on the '68 and later front quarters with the later bumper pressings they put on the '65 they don't appear to be up on all of the fine details of what changed year to year. That was the first detail that popped out at me before he said anything about using later panels but then again I am a detail freak and have been studying and working on these cars since I was a kid. I would however expect a shop that specializes in VWs to know these details though
EDIT:After reading more info about the ownership history of this car and I am withdrawing anything that comes across as siding with the shop that did that work.
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Chris
You know, a lot of these scratches will buff right out... Jerry Seinfeld
Last edited by splitjunkie on Wed Aug 09, 2017 9:04 am; edited 1 time in total |
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René R.
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Joined: July 06, 2015
Posts: 1710
Location: No. Calif.
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| Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 8:07 pm Post subject: Re: What would you do with this 52 Zwitter? |
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Even without media blasting I find it hard to believe that some clue that there were issues never came up. There surely must have been something that looked amiss even under the bondo. Looking at the the after-blast video there were a LOT of problem areas. The grafted sunroof is particularly glaring and should certainly have been noticed, and mentioned.
But another issue hasn't been discussed:
| Quote: |
| P.S : "Concours-quality restoration cars are often given upholstery, paint, plating, and mechanical restoration to a standard far exceeding that of the car when it was new". |
Bottom line, the previous restoration may have made it a 'show car' but it wasn't 'Concours-quality," at least as I understand it. I expect a Concours car to be very, very accurately restored. This one had a completely non-original interior, made by Sewfine. Now, I have to admit that I love Sewfine's interiors and I used a similar tweed fabric in restoring my '54. But I would never in a million years claim my driver to be either Show or Concours level. If I had invested $70K in the restoration I would have insisted on 100% authentic fabric. (And much as I love my interior I would never say the quality exceeds what it had when new.)
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ajl1971
Samba Member
Joined: December 09, 2010
Posts: 89
Location: New York
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| Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 8:49 pm Post subject: Re: What would you do with this 52 Zwitter? |
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| René R. wrote: |
Even without media blasting I find it hard to believe that some clue that there were issues never came up. There surely must have been something that looked amiss even under the bondo. Looking at the the after-blast video there were a LOT of problem areas. The grafted sunroof is particularly glaring and should certainly have been noticed, and mentioned.
But another issue hasn't been discussed:
| Quote: |
| P.S : "Concours-quality restoration cars are often given upholstery, paint, plating, and mechanical restoration to a standard far exceeding that of the car when it was new". |
Bottom line, the previous restoration may have made it a 'show car' but it wasn't 'Concours-quality," at least as I understand it. I expect a Concours car to be very, very accurately restored. This one had a completely non-original interior, made by Sewfine. Now, I have to admit that I love Sewfine's interiors and I used a similar tweed fabric in restoring my '54. But I would never in a million years claim my driver to be either Show or Concours level. If I had invested $70K in the restoration I would have insisted on 100% authentic fabric. (And much as I love my interior I would never say the quality exceeds what it had when new.) |
Good point and that is what bother the most, the use of pan off concours restoration as a point of sale when it was not even close, that is just totally totally wrong and unfair to the people.
How can you do a Concours restoration using can of spray instead of powder coating, Home Depot Roof product for noise deadening etc etc etc. Give me a brake.
Is this guy pretending to be who he can't be ? Is he afraid to fail that always want to be the one with the most desirable\unique ride to restore ? Is he desperate to pay the bills ? Who knows.
You dont build trust that way, you do it doing the right thing for the people and yourself like Lenny Copp does.
When was the last time you heard Lenny Copp restored a monster like this one, probably never. |
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55bundt
Samba Member
Joined: December 15, 2002
Posts: 168
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| Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 8:44 am Post subject: Re: What would you do with this 52 Zwitter? |
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I am a little confused here  . So the last shop that painted this car had no idea it was a fake?? Is that statement true or just speculation. From what I understand the shop owner is a frequent member of this forum and last visited yesterday, but hasn't responded to this thread??  |
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splitjunkie
Samba Member
Joined: April 04, 2006
Posts: 4092
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| Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 8:54 am Post subject: Re: What would you do with this 52 Zwitter? |
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| ajl1971 wrote: |
| René R. wrote: |
Even without media blasting I find it hard to believe that some clue that there were issues never came up. There surely must have been something that looked amiss even under the bondo. Looking at the the after-blast video there were a LOT of problem areas. The grafted sunroof is particularly glaring and should certainly have been noticed, and mentioned.
But another issue hasn't been discussed:
| Quote: |
| P.S : "Concours-quality restoration cars are often given upholstery, paint, plating, and mechanical restoration to a standard far exceeding that of the car when it was new". |
Bottom line, the previous restoration may have made it a 'show car' but it wasn't 'Concours-quality," at least as I understand it. I expect a Concours car to be very, very accurately restored. This one had a completely non-original interior, made by Sewfine. Now, I have to admit that I love Sewfine's interiors and I used a similar tweed fabric in restoring my '54. But I would never in a million years claim my driver to be either Show or Concours level. If I had invested $70K in the restoration I would have insisted on 100% authentic fabric. (And much as I love my interior I would never say the quality exceeds what it had when new.) |
Good point and that is what bother the most, the use of pan off concours restoration as a point of sale when it was not even close, that is just totally totally wrong and unfair to the people.
How can you do a Concours restoration using can of spray instead of powder coating, Home Depot Roof product for noise deadening etc etc etc. Give me a brake.
Is this guy pretending to be who he can't be ? Is he afraid to fail that always want to be the one with the most desirable\unique ride to restore ? Is he desperate to pay the bills ? Who knows.
You dont build trust that way, you do it doing the right thing for the people and yourself like Lenny Copp does.
When was the last time you heard Lenny Copp restored a monster like this one, probably never. |
EDIT:After reading more info about the ownership history of this car and I am withdrawing anything that comes across as siding with the shop that did that work.
_________________
Chris
You know, a lot of these scratches will buff right out... Jerry Seinfeld
Last edited by splitjunkie on Wed Aug 09, 2017 9:02 am; edited 2 times in total |
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splitjunkie
Samba Member
Joined: April 04, 2006
Posts: 4092
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| Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 11:15 am Post subject: Re: What would you do with this 52 Zwitter? |
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This explains the funky headlight wire tube business seen in the video.
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Chris
You know, a lot of these scratches will buff right out... Jerry Seinfeld |
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nlorntson
Crazy VW Lady
Joined: March 13, 2004
Posts: 3783
Location: Twin Cities, MN
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| Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 1:24 pm Post subject: Re: What would you do with this 52 Zwitter? |
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| splitjunkie wrote: |
This explains the funky headlight wire tube business seen in the video.
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I was wondering if anyone would chime in on that. It's one detail that differentiates a real split/oval fender from a repro or later one.
Even if you weld a replacement tube in, you still have to make sure the fender fits and the tube bolts up with the inner wheel well. You should never see that piece painted and separate from the fender.
Poor quality workmanship and a rookie mistake on Vallone's shop or the body shop he uses. |
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ArthritisMaster
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Joined: May 06, 2016
Posts: 80
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| Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 2:15 pm Post subject: Re: What would you do with this 52 Zwitter? |
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I almost wonder if the car was a scheme used to hurt the restoration shop's reputation. The car was restored to a high quality, then out of the blue, the next owner (or shop?) decides to have the car stripped down to metal, "exposing" the previous shop. This is not an odd occurrence by any means to have a certain year made to be an older year, but the restoration job that was originally done seemed to show no sign of poor body work upon completion, so how could the new owner have this newfound inclination to tear down a "$70k" car? Just a simple theory I thought of while reading this, not inciting anything! 
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OvalinAz
Samba Mini Tech
Joined: June 09, 2009
Posts: 1076
Location: AZ
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| Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 2:53 pm Post subject: Re: What would you do with this 52 Zwitter? |
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| ArthritisMaster wrote: |
| I almost wonder if the car was a scheme used to hurt the restoration shop's reputation. The car was restored to a high quality, then out of the blue, the next owner (or shop?) decides to have the car stripped down to metal, "exposing" the previous shop. This is not an odd occurrence by any means to have a certain year made to be an older year, but the restoration job that was originally done seemed to show no sign of poor body work upon completion, so how could the new owner have this newfound inclination to tear down a "$70k" car? Just a simple theory I thought of while reading this, not inciting anything! |
When it went to the other shop, i heard that the owner wanted to make sure it was a real 3 fold, they saw graft lines, noticed other issues with paint and body. then decided to strip and blast the body, and there ya go one hack job mess!
EDIT:
http://www.classicvwbugs.com/52ZwitterRag/
looking at the pictures here, in the early stages of the body work it looks like a totaly different car, like its a REAL Zwitter in the pictures in the bodyshop, cant see any the gnarly hack job shit in the pictures. like the entire roof graft.
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ArthritisMaster
Samba Member
Joined: May 06, 2016
Posts: 80
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| Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 5:15 pm Post subject: Re: What would you do with this 52 Zwitter? |
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It still seems somehow awfully suspicious to me... 
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splitjunkie
Samba Member
Joined: April 04, 2006
Posts: 4092
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| Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 6:23 pm Post subject: Re: What would you do with this 52 Zwitter? |
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| OvalinAz wrote: |
| ArthritisMaster wrote: |
| I almost wonder if the car was a scheme used to hurt the restoration shop's reputation. The car was restored to a high quality, then out of the blue, the next owner (or shop?) decides to have the car stripped down to metal, "exposing" the previous shop. This is not an odd occurrence by any means to have a certain year made to be an older year, but the restoration job that was originally done seemed to show no sign of poor body work upon completion, so how could the new owner have this newfound inclination to tear down a "$70k" car? Just a simple theory I thought of while reading this, not inciting anything! |
When it went to the other shop, i heard that the owner wanted to make sure it was a real 3 fold, they saw graft lines, noticed other issues with paint and body. then decided to strip and blast the body, and there ya go one hack job mess!
EDIT:
http://www.classicvwbugs.com/52ZwitterRag/
looking at the pictures here, in the early stages of the body work it looks like a totaly different car, like its a REAL Zwitter in the pictures in the bodyshop, cant see any the gnarly hack job shit in the pictures. like the entire roof graft. |
I'm sorry. But the time to make sure it is a real rag top is before not after you buy the car.
I see a black zwitter go in, i see black paint during all stages of body work. I see bondo both new and old in the areas where the grafting was done at least around the rag top and the rear quarter panels. I also see skim coating of fenders and doors. No attempt to hide the fact.
EDIT:After reading more info about the ownership history of this car and I am withdrawing anything that comes across as siding with the shop that did that work.
_________________
Chris
You know, a lot of these scratches will buff right out... Jerry Seinfeld
Last edited by splitjunkie on Wed Aug 09, 2017 9:06 am; edited 1 time in total |
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DDub
Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2005
Posts: 307
Location: central pa.
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| Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 7:28 pm Post subject: Re: What would you do with this 52 Zwitter? |
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| IF I were foolish enough to buy this car for $70,000 I'll be damned if I would show the world what I found. What is the purpose of sand blasting it and showing how little it is really worth? |
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ArthritisMaster
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Joined: May 06, 2016
Posts: 80
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| Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 7:31 pm Post subject: Re: What would you do with this 52 Zwitter? |
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So let us lay it all out on the table. Do you think that this is Vallone's fault? Should it warrant his reputation on stake? I find it hard to believe that a man as smart as he is would do something like this on purpose.
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1600cc 1.6L
Manufactured: 02/73
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Pez
Samba Member
Joined: September 16, 2003
Posts: 583
Location: Texarkana
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| Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 9:13 pm Post subject: Re: What would you do with this 52 Zwitter? |
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| ArthritisMaster wrote: |
| So let us lay it all out on the table. Do you think that this is Vallone's fault? Should it warrant his reputation on stake? I find it hard to believe that a man as smart as he is would do something like this on purpose. |
Sounds to me like a customer had Vallone do a resto mod then tried to sell for top dollar. What is unknown is what the customer requested and to what degree he/she wanted Vallone to dig. So I'm not sure anyone except the PO should be to "blame" until more is known. But, that is between Vallone and the PO.
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ajl1971
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Joined: December 09, 2010
Posts: 89
Location: New York
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| Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 3:43 pm Post subject: Re: What would you do with this 52 Zwitter? |
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| Pez wrote: |
| ArthritisMaster wrote: |
| So let us lay it all out on the table. Do you think that this is Vallone's fault? Should it warrant his reputation on stake? I find it hard to believe that a man as smart as he is would do something like this on purpose. |
Sounds to me like a customer had Vallone do a resto mod then tried to sell for top dollar. What is unknown is what the customer requested and to what degree he/she wanted Vallone to dig. So I'm not sure anyone except the PO should be to "blame" until more is known. But, that is between Vallone and the PO. |
You are missing the point, as far as we know, the car was sold from this shop as a Concours Restoration and as a 1952 Zwitter when it was not. (read "esde" post again). You can see some pictures of the hack areas on the new build but either they are taken far away or with new bondo, specially the ragtop area. I dont think anybody here is trying to hurt anybody, I dont believe the car was stripped down on purpose to hurt anybody like one of the members on this forum stated. Who would have thought that after completing a "Concours Restoration" anybody in their right state of mind would do a complete tear down, but it happened.
I believe that something happened, whether the last owner sold it to somebody else or whatever, we still don't know. If I have to guess something did not look right, paint cracked, body lines were not right or the new owner was tipped about this car or maybe somebody else who knows very well this type of car caught something. The truth will come out. Somebody knows, somebody knows the owner of this car. Its a matter of time.
In general I just wonder, people really know the type of restoration they are getting, everything look great in pictures but after a car is painted, a lot of things can be disguise. |
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Lind
Samba Member
Joined: November 06, 2000
Posts: 9915
Location: idaho
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| Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 4:35 pm Post subject: Re: What would you do with this 52 Zwitter? |
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It sounds like the buyer should have inspected the car before purchase.
Here are some steps for not getting burned:
1. Look at the car in person. Look closely at everything. See how good the fit and finish is on the car. Feel how it drives. Ask yourself "is this something that I should drop $70k on?" If it seems good, move to step 2. If it does not seem good, be happy that you did not buy it.
2. Pay an expert to inspect the car for you. Ask them "is this something that I should drop $70k on?" If they cannot find anything wrong with the car, find a new expert. If they do find flaws with the car, decide if you can live with the flaws or fix them easily.
3. If you somehow skipped steps 1 or 2, and you have dropped $70 on a shiny turd, decide if you can live with its turdliness. If so, drive the wheels off of it. If not, sell it. Take a loss. Cut your losses. Learn an expensive lesson.
4. Do not completely dis-assemble the car. If you wanted a restoration project, you would have bought one to begin with, but you didn't. You are part of the check-writer's club. You drive nice shiny old things while us broke-dick dirtbags restore our cars. Be proud and play your game, because you are about as good at playing our game, as we are at playing your game.
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luftkraft
Samba Member
Joined: January 21, 2010
Posts: 12
Location: Warwick, New York
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| Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 6:31 pm Post subject: Re: What would you do with this 52 Zwitter? |
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I saw this video last week on youtube. I also went to cooker's vdubs instagram site which has a lot more pictures of this car both before and after media blasting (he apparantly has the car now after the guy who paid vallone to restore brought it to him). The car is actually made from 3 cars an oval window bottom, a split sedan roof, with a three fold rag grafted in. The split window vin is welded into the oval body. Chris Vallone bought this car in NJ a couple years back probably not realizing it was fake and found a client in Long Island who wanted him to restore it for him as part of his ridiculous Build-a-bug program under the impression that it was a geniune zwitter ragtop (he says all this in his youtube video about this car). I am not at all surprised that this happened and the pictures of the car under restoration with the fresh filler in the graft areas is proof enough for me that Vallone knew the car was fake but decided to continue the charade. After all who is gonna media blast a freshly restored $70k car? Vallone probably hasn't commented on any of this because his attorney advised him not to. The pictures on instagram are great by the way. They really showcase the "concourse d'walmart" restoration you get from Chris. Even on his own webiste you can see the badly dented luggage area get covered in home depot roof repair foil then a micro fiber towel placed on top to bolster up the carpeting. ClassicVWbugs.com BEEP BEEP LOL
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Pez
Samba Member
Joined: September 16, 2003
Posts: 583
Location: Texarkana
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| Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 7:44 pm Post subject: Re: What would you do with this 52 Zwitter? |
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| ajl1971 wrote: |
| Pez wrote: |
| ArthritisMaster wrote: |
| So let us lay it all out on the table. Do you think that this is Vallone's fault? Should it warrant his reputation on stake? I find it hard to believe that a man as smart as he is would do something like this on purpose. |
Sounds to me like a customer had Vallone do a resto mod then tried to sell for top dollar. What is unknown is what the customer requested and to what degree he/she wanted Vallone to dig. So I'm not sure anyone except the PO should be to "blame" until more is known. But, that is between Vallone and the PO. |
You are missing the point, as far as we know, the car was sold from this shop as a Concours Restoration and as a 1952 Zwitter when it was not. (read "esde" post again). You can see some pictures of the hack areas on the new build but either they are taken far away or with new bondo, specially the ragtop area. I dont think anybody here is trying to hurt anybody, I dont believe the car was stripped down on purpose to hurt anybody like one of the members on this forum stated. Who would have thought that after completing a "Concours Restoration" anybody in their right state of mind would do a complete tear down, but it happened.
I believe that something happened, whether the last owner sold it to somebody else or whatever, we still don't know. If I have to guess something did not look right, paint cracked, body lines were not right or the new owner was tipped about this car or maybe somebody else who knows very well this type of car caught something. The truth will come out. Somebody knows, somebody knows the owner of this car. Its a matter of time.
In general I just wonder, people really know the type of restoration they are getting, everything look great in pictures but after a car is painted, a lot of things can be disguise. |
I misread and was under the impression that Owner "A" had Vallone restore the car. Then Owner "A" sold car to Owner "B" so Vallone was just a middle man. Apparently not then.
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Last edited by Pez on Mon Aug 07, 2017 7:53 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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splitjunkie
Samba Member
Joined: April 04, 2006
Posts: 4092
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| Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 7:46 pm Post subject: Re: What would you do with this 52 Zwitter? |
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Thanks for posting who has it now. Although second hand info, at least lot more info that is coming from someone who is reputable and does excellent work. One thing he said is spot on. If a shop quotes you a set price before tearing into the car, run away. This was apparantly the case with this car. He is actually saying $90K.
I probably was giving the benefit of a doubt prematurely.
While I feel for the person who bought this car, this is what can happen when you have more money than knowledge of what you are buying. Just looking under the car, under the fenders and behind the dash would have told any prospective buyer to run away.
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Chris
You know, a lot of these scratches will buff right out... Jerry Seinfeld |
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ajl1971
Samba Member
Joined: December 09, 2010
Posts: 89
Location: New York
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| Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 8:16 pm Post subject: Re: What would you do with this 52 Zwitter? |
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| splitjunkie wrote: |
Thanks for posting who has it now. Although second hand info, at least lot more info that is coming from someone who is reputable and does excellent work. One thing he said is spot on. If a shop quotes you a set price before tearing into the car, run away. This was apparantly the case with this car. He is actually saying $90K.
I probably was giving the benefit of a doubt prematurely.
While I feel for the person who bought this car, this is what can happen when you have more money than knowledge of what you are buying. Just looking under the car, under the fenders and behind the dash would have told any prospective buyer to run away. |
Looks familiar ?
https://youtu.be/u7eIF4cgFx4
Interesting to watch
https://youtu.be/0zv3H-LDhoM
Even more interesting if you have the time to watch it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4oUeDIKViI |
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