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Manfred58sc Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2009 Posts: 3374
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Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 7:36 am Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera |
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In regards to the oil leak have you checked the end play? Grab the lower pulley and is if there is any motion in and out. A "click" is OK but a "clunk" is a matter of concern ( it will keep going, I drove a "clunk" engine 36,000 miles through every state in the Western US and made it home). Could just be a bad quality seal, was it an orange one or a black one? _________________ Fat chick owner/operator |
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D/A/N Samba Member
Joined: August 13, 2010 Posts: 2224 Location: 11222
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Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 7:50 am Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera |
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Manfred58sc wrote: |
In regards to the oil leak have you checked the end play? Grab the lower pulley and is if there is any motion in and out. A "click" is OK but a "clunk" is a matter of concern ( it will keep going, I drove a "clunk" engine 36,000 miles through every state in the Western US and made it home). Could just be a bad quality seal, was it an orange one or a black one? |
It's an orange Elring seal. I didn't have the heart to check the end play yet. |
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Manfred58sc Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2009 Posts: 3374
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Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:31 am Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera |
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You have to know before proceeding further, also check advance of your distributor. That could explain the intermittent behavior of maximum speed. A failure to achieve maximum advance could also explain why you are running "cold". I don't think you could "ice" up in summer time driving even with plugged heat risers, you are flat out not generating enough heat . _________________ Fat chick owner/operator |
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Manfred58sc Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2009 Posts: 3374
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Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:33 am Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera |
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maybe post a video of the engine "rapping up" from idle to about 4 K rpms. That may tell the tale... _________________ Fat chick owner/operator |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50261
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Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 10:07 am Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera |
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Manfred58sc wrote: |
I don't think you could "ice" up in summer time driving even with plugged heat risers, you are flat out not generating enough heat . |
70° at 60% relative humidity puts one in the realm of serious icing at low throttle openings.
https://www.aopa.org/-/media/images/legacy/aopa/ho....jpg?la=en |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 10:21 am Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera |
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I read the whole complaint - and the oil leak is all that I see which could be an issue depending where it is coming from. That said Colin stopped by last week with his 3000 mile old engine to fix a similar leak. The icing is likely behind many of the issues based on the description the manifold is cold. Running a bicycle cable cut at an angle thru it on a drill will likely clear out the carbon. May take some patience but it will work.
The voltage issue of 12.8 volts up front at night is pretty normal for these buses. We get 12.5V - 13V+/- at night with 55amp alternator, and every single connector / strap has been cleaned or replaced. I have even gone connector to connector with a VOM looking for voltage drops. Just the fuses and ignition switch drop the voltage significantly when there is a load on them. A bus harness is about 18' - 20' long and VW did not make them with extra heavy wire. The circuits are made with the lightest wire they could be. Back in the 1970's one did not have all the extra accessories. Many buses came without even AM radios. _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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D/A/N Samba Member
Joined: August 13, 2010 Posts: 2224 Location: 11222
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Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 10:25 am Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera |
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Wildthings wrote: |
Manfred58sc wrote: |
I don't think you could "ice" up in summer time driving even with plugged heat risers, you are flat out not generating enough heat . |
70° at 60% relative humidity puts one in the realm of serious icing at low throttle openings.
https://www.aopa.org/-/media/images/legacy/aopa/ho....jpg?la=en |
It first became really bad when it was about 65* and raining out so that aligns with what you're saying.
In other news, we have a thunker, not a bad main seal. We are now 0-2 with Team Tram motors in the last few years. Of course Utterly and completely fucking unbelievable!!!! Stay tuned for how we'll all be hearing about how it's the part's fault.
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Tram Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003 Posts: 22697 Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 10:45 am Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera |
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D/A/N wrote: |
Wildthings wrote: |
Manfred58sc wrote: |
I don't think you could "ice" up in summer time driving even with plugged heat risers, you are flat out not generating enough heat . |
70° at 60% relative humidity puts one in the realm of serious icing at low throttle openings.
https://www.aopa.org/-/media/images/legacy/aopa/ho....jpg?la=en |
It first became really bad when it was about 65* and raining out so that aligns with what you're saying.
In other news, we have a thunker, not a bad main seal. We are now 0-2 with Team Tram motors in the last few years. Of course Utterly and completely fucking unbelievable!!!! Stay tuned for how we'll all be hearing about how it's the part's fault.
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Ummm... we won't be hearing about how it's the part's fault unless it is. You were able to examine the PR tube that cracked, pretty sure you heard the parts guy say that others have had this issue with these PR tubes and we needed Brazilian or windage ones to work (unless you weren't here then) you took pics of the two brake drums that were out on every comparison measurement as well as verifiably out of round, you saw the new drum with the "scab" that started the problem, you saw two castle nuts just snap in half, you saw two new rebuilt carbs that would not run...
So what would you say the issue was with all that?
Moving beyond...
Bus is here now- endplay feels pretty normal- almost imperceptible but it DOES clunk when you really put some balls behind it and it DOES have a leak, so something's wrong for sure. If the engine had 70K miles I'd say "just drive it" but not at 1000- 1100 miles, so they are taking the other car back and I will tear this out and down and see WTF. I was able to get new steel backed bearings, and the case was align bored. We shall see.
I also saw some comments about the "weak" wiring systems on these. The TWO things that are nice and seem quite robust on this Bus were the body and the wiring. I question the alternator whirring and dragging idle down as it kicks in. Normal or no?
I can also upgrade to a 95 amp version of this Bosch alternator- any potential pitfalls?
I mean yeah, the wiring may be long, puny, and that low voltage may be "normal" but stalling at idle with headlights and wipers is not. This never happened even with generators. _________________ Немає виправдання для війни! Я з Україною.
Bryan67 wrote: |
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Manfred58sc Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2009 Posts: 3374
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Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 1:25 pm Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera |
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Its a thunker for sure, ?
I have never had icing at those temperatures , however I have not attempted any road trips in high humidity since the dawn of ethanol fuels. I will grant that as a possibility. I would still like to hear a "rap it up video" to ascertain distributor function. If the engine was "lugged" for 1000 miles that would be pure hell on the bottom end.
The parts are just shit anymore, that is the plain and simple truth. _________________ Fat chick owner/operator |
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Tram Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003 Posts: 22697 Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 1:49 pm Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera |
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Manfred58sc wrote: |
Its a thunker for sure, ?
I have never had icing at those temperatures , however I have not attempted any road trips in high humidity since the dawn of ethanol fuels. I will grant that as a possibility. I would still like to hear a "rap it up video" to ascertain distributor function. If the engine was "lugged" for 1000 miles that would be pure hell on the bottom end.
The parts are just shit anymore, that is the plain and simple truth. |
I made a mark at 30 BTDC to verify and it advanced then topped out right there at 3200 RPM so yes, the distributor is functioning correctly... it's also a new tasb unit.
I agree with what you're saying about 'lugging" due to icing being hell on a bottom end esp. since their route had them climb 4000 feet from here in 60 some miles and who knows how far up beyond that so... neena said the Bus ran just great till the temp dropped and it started raining up in the Cascades, and neither D/A/N nor neena are exactly VW neophytes, so I am confident that they knew exactly what they were seeing. They've also been through 'plugged heat riser syndrome' on their Beetle in the past so they ought to know.
I'm giving them a total pass on the "lugging it" theory, true or not, because they were in the middle of quite desolate BFE in the dark with no wifi or phone service and you gotta do what you gotta do in these cases. The play is so minimal that I doubt there is serious case damage but we'll see when I tear it down and I'll deal with it.
I'd like some input on the "stalling at idle with headlights on/ alternator kicking in and dropping RPM by about 200/ should we go with a 95 amp alternator or will it INCREASE this drag / should we just go with the 38 amp generator and say fuck the alternator, and does anyone out there have the correct dimpled fan tin" dilemma.
But then, we also circle back round to how much of this was caused by being forced to run it with an iced manifold? Measuring end play and then removing the flywheel to see if the rear bearing moves with the crank or not is where I start, and then a verified clear manifold. Since the fan housing/ alternator will be off anyhow, this will be the time to do whatever I am doing with that.
I'm walking away from it for a couple days to clear my head first, though, so let the opinions/ theories fly. _________________ Немає виправдання для війни! Я з Україною.
Bryan67 wrote: |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 1:56 pm Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera |
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Tram - icing could cause the idle error too unless the alternator pulldown can be duplicated in non-icing conditions.
That said - one would not expect the alternator to act like an air conditioner load on the engine unless the electrical load was changing. The question would be what might be turning on and off that pulled so much current it pulled the engine down. An alternator with no current load isn't going to pull down the engine. Do you know how the charging circuit switches between batteries? _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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Tram Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003 Posts: 22697 Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 2:06 pm Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera |
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SGKent wrote: |
Tram - icing could cause the idle error too unless the alternator pulldown can be duplicated in non-icing conditions.
That said - one would not expect the alternator to act like an air conditioner load on the engine unless the electrical load was changing. The question would be what might be turning on and off that pulled so much current it pulled the engine down. An alternator with no current load isn't going to pull down the engine. Do you know how the charging circuit switches between batteries? |
The alternator pulled down idle speed from the get- go. The engine idle will be set, then "Whirrrrrrr" and it drags down even in full daylight with nothing on. When it kicks out, idle goes back up.
Aux battery is hooked into the charging system by a simple ignition circuit tripped solenoid.
We figured we'd start with the simplest and least expensive, which could be upgraded if necessary later based on their actual needs. _________________ Немає виправдання для війни! Я з Україною.
Bryan67 wrote: |
Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
To best contact me, please use the EMAIL function in my profile |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 3:37 pm Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera |
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Tram wrote: |
SGKent wrote: |
Tram - icing could cause the idle error too unless the alternator pulldown can be duplicated in non-icing conditions.
That said - one would not expect the alternator to act like an air conditioner load on the engine unless the electrical load was changing. The question would be what might be turning on and off that pulled so much current it pulled the engine down. An alternator with no current load isn't going to pull down the engine. Do you know how the charging circuit switches between batteries? |
The alternator pulled down idle speed from the get- go. The engine idle will be set, then "Whirrrrrrr" and it drags down even in full daylight with nothing on. When it kicks out, idle goes back up.
Aux battery is hooked into the charging system by a simple ignition circuit tripped solenoid.
We figured we'd start with the simplest and least expensive, which could be upgraded if necessary later based on their actual needs. |
If nothing is loading the alternator down externally. then that could indicate a winding is shorting out internally. An inductive amp meter on the lead to the battery (starter) might reveal whether there is heavy current flowing somewhere during the loading process. Normally things like diodes don't cycle. The energy that is being pulled from the engine when it is loaded down has to go somewhere. Either it is staying internal, or going external to the alternator. _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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TomWesty Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2007 Posts: 3482 Location: Wyoming,USA
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Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 3:43 pm Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera |
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SGKent wrote: |
Tram wrote: |
SGKent wrote: |
Tram - icing could cause the idle error too unless the alternator pulldown can be duplicated in non-icing conditions.
That said - one would not expect the alternator to act like an air conditioner load on the engine unless the electrical load was changing. The question would be what might be turning on and off that pulled so much current it pulled the engine down. An alternator with no current load isn't going to pull down the engine. Do you know how the charging circuit switches between batteries? |
The alternator pulled down idle speed from the get- go. The engine idle will be set, then "Whirrrrrrr" and it drags down even in full daylight with nothing on. When it kicks out, idle goes back up.
Aux battery is hooked into the charging system by a simple ignition circuit tripped solenoid.
We figured we'd start with the simplest and least expensive, which could be upgraded if necessary later based on their actual needs. |
If nothing is loading the alternator down externally. then that could indicate a winding is shorting out internally. An inductive amp meter on the lead to the battery (starter) might reveal whether there is heavy current flowing somewhere during the loading process. Normally things like diodes don't cycle. The energy that is being pulled from the engine when it is loaded down has to go somewhere. Either it is staying internal, or going external to the alternator. |
Since this is DC we're dealing with, would an inductive ammeter even work? _________________ If you haven't bled on them, you haven't worked on them.
Visit: www.tomcoryell.com and check out my music! |
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Tram Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003 Posts: 22697 Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 3:44 pm Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera |
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SGKent wrote: |
Tram wrote: |
SGKent wrote: |
Tram - icing could cause the idle error too unless the alternator pulldown can be duplicated in non-icing conditions.
That said - one would not expect the alternator to act like an air conditioner load on the engine unless the electrical load was changing. The question would be what might be turning on and off that pulled so much current it pulled the engine down. An alternator with no current load isn't going to pull down the engine. Do you know how the charging circuit switches between batteries? |
The alternator pulled down idle speed from the get- go. The engine idle will be set, then "Whirrrrrrr" and it drags down even in full daylight with nothing on. When it kicks out, idle goes back up.
Aux battery is hooked into the charging system by a simple ignition circuit tripped solenoid.
We figured we'd start with the simplest and least expensive, which could be upgraded if necessary later based on their actual needs. |
If nothing is loading the alternator down externally. then that could indicate a winding is shorting out internally. An inductive amp meter on the lead to the battery (starter) might reveal whether there is heavy current flowing somewhere during the loading process. Normally things like diodes don't cycle. The energy that is being pulled from the engine when it is loaded down has to go somewhere. Either it is staying internal, or going external to the alternator. |
As an experiment, neena said they disconnected the aux battery but it made no difference on their gauge.
I haven't seen an inductive amp meter since the mid 80s actually. Are they still around?
Edit: Guess so! There are some nice hand held ones on Amazon. My last experiences with them were the big roll around VAT-40 testers...
_________________ Немає виправдання для війни! Я з Україною.
Bryan67 wrote: |
Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
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busdaddy Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004 Posts: 51057 Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 4:02 pm Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera |
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You say it "cuts in and then out", usually (aside from some that don't start charging until the engine first comes off idle) once they cut in they stay in. Unless there's something applying a big intermittant load to the system. I've had a few noisy ones, they all charged fine, it's when the noise stops that the problems begin.
I have an old combination tach/dwell meter somewhere that also has a shunt you attach to the D+ stud to measure amps, sounds like it would be useful in this case. _________________ Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.
Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
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Tram Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003 Posts: 22697 Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 4:11 pm Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera |
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busdaddy wrote: |
You say it "cuts in and then out", usually (aside from some that don't start charging until the engine first comes off idle) once they cut in they stay in. Unless there's something applying a big intermittant load to the system. I've had a few noisy ones, they all charged fine, it's when the noise stops that the problems begin.
I have an old combination tach/dwell meter somewhere that also has a shunt you attach to the D+ stud to measure amps, sounds like it would be useful in this case. |
Again, the issue isn't the noise as much as the fact that it drags the idle down concurrent WITH the noise... and it's not "cutting in and out" rapidly... it'll stay "in" for several minutes, then out for five or maybe longer, then it may kick back in. It stays "in" with headlights on. It just really seems to bog the engine at idle way more than I think it oughta.
Glad you mentioned that old tach/ dwell... you reminded me that I have one, and I believe it may have the shunt as well. _________________ Немає виправдання для війни! Я з Україною.
Bryan67 wrote: |
Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
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lil-jinx Samba Member
Joined: August 14, 2013 Posts: 1109 Location: New Brunswick,Canada
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50261
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Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 4:39 pm Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera |
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Without going back and reading 8 pages of this, is the alternator internally regulated? A really f#cked mechanical regulator could do this. Is it possible that the brushes are hanging up in the brush holders or are worn past their usable life? Maybe an electrical connection is just loose somewhere. If an external regulator maybe something is just plain wired wrong, like the charge light is wired into the oil pressure switch or something else equally bizarre. |
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D/A/N Samba Member
Joined: August 13, 2010 Posts: 2224 Location: 11222
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Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 4:46 pm Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera |
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Wildthings wrote: |
Without going back and reading 8 pages of this, is the alternator internally regulated? A really f#cked mechanical regulator could do this. Is it possible that the brushes are hanging up in the brush holders or are worn past their usable life? Maybe an electrical connection is just loose somewhere. If an external regulator maybe something is just plain wired wrong, like the charge light is wired into the oil pressure switch or something else equally bizarre. |
It's internally regulated and ran fine on another car up until May when I pulled that engine before selling the car. I mailed this alternator/fan assembly from NYC to Oregon and per Tram the box was pretty well beat up upon arrival and my welded/balanced Berg fan was all bent up. So maybe a disgruntled UPS guy kicked it around the back of his truck a few times and something ist kaputt. |
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